DEPOSITION OF
RICARDO MORALES
NAVARETTE
PART II
NOTE: The spelling in the
original deposition conflicts with my spell check.
In some cases, the spelling has been corrected.
These corrections are found in brackets following the
misspelt word.
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE
ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN
AND FOR DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA
CRIMINAL DIVISION
CASE NO. 81-17247
STATE OF FLORIDA,
PLAINTIFF
vs.
ALFREDO ARIAS, et al,
DEFENDANTS
PART II
State Attorney's Office
9th Floor
Metropolitan Justice Building
1351 Northwest 12th Street
Miami, Florida
April 5, 1982
10:10 o'clock a.m.
DEPOSITION OF RICARDO MORALES NAVARETTE
Taken before Joycee Wax, Notary Public in and for the State
of Florida at Large, pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition
filed in the above cause.
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APPEARANCES:
JANET RENO
State Attorney
BY: RINA COHAN
Assistant State Attorney
1351 Northwest 12th Street
Miami, Florida
on behalf of the Plaintiff.
DOUGLAS L. WILLIAMS, ESQ.
NATHAN, WILLIAMS, & REICHENTHAL
444 Brickell Avenue
Miami, Florida
on behalf of Alfredo Arias, Defendant
EDWARD R. CARHART, ESQ.
717 Ponce de Leon Boulevard
Coral Gables, Florida
on behalf of Rafael Villaverde.
BENEDICT P. KUEHNE, ESQ.
200 Southeast First Street
Miami, Florida
on behalf of Carlos Luis.
ALSO PRESENT:
OFFICER D.C. DIAZ
CARLOS QUESADA, Defendant
ALFREDO ARIAS, Defendant
MIGUEL ANGEL FERNANDEZ, Defendant
CERTIFIED QUESTIONS
PAGE 52 -- LINE 1
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Thereupon:
RICARDO MORALES NAVARETTE
called as a witness on behalf of the Defendants having been
first duly sworn, was examined and testified on his oath as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Identify yourself, for the record, please?
A. My name is Ricardo Morales Navarette.
Q. Are you the same person whose deposition commenced
here on Friday before Ms. Cohan and me with Mr. Carhart
present?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you the one whom they sometimes call "The
Monkey"?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to think about or go
over, in your
mind, any of the questions that I asked you on Friday, and
any of the answers
that you gave to the extent that there is anything that you
feel you need
to change now in the interest of accuracy?
A. I raise out of my mind whatever I talked to you the
other day due to preceding events.
Q. Is there anything that you now feel you
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PAGE 4
need to change concerning the testimony you gave on Friday
in the interest of accuracy?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. Let me remind you at the outset today, that if
there is any question that I ask you that you don't
understand, tell me that you don't understand it, and I will
rephrase it until it is in a form with which we can both
work.
A. I would appreciate that, Douglas, since we've had
-- you know,
some disagreements about the way you ask your --
Q. Okay. If you don't know the answer to a
question that I ask you --
A. Let me finish. Let me finish, please.
Q. You said enough.
A. No. Why?
MS. COHAN: Objection. Argumentative.
The witness will be allowed to respond fully.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Well, Ricky, is there something about what I just
told you that needs clarification for the record?
A. Yes, because when you start asking questions, you
know, you go
on a question for an extended period
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of time by which, at the end of that extended period of
time, I really don't know what you are asking.
Q. Okay. Then, if that happens today and you
don't understand the question because of that, tell me that.
A. That is what I am telling you.
Q. If I ask you a question to which you don't know the
answer, tell me that you don't know the answer because you
are, of course, testifying under
oath?
A. Of course.
Q. (Continuing) -- and responsible for any
inaccuracy.
A. Right.
Q. If it's necessary for you to approximate in giving
me an answer either with regard to dates or distances or
times or anything similar of a
quantative nature like that, tell us, for the record, that
you are approximating, so that it doesn't appear on the
record that you are making an absolute statement.
A. On or about would be fair to you?
Q. If I ask you, for example, a question that requires
either to give me an answer that involves distances in feet
or in miles or weight of something or time of day and you
are approximating, tell us that.
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If you are able to give precise, exact testimony, tell us
that.
MR. OUTERBRIDGE: Excuse me, could you just indulge me for
just one minute for an off the record conversation? I
need to have a brief conversation with Rina.
(Off the record.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. And finally, Ricky, if I ask you a question that
can be answered with a yes or no answer and that requires a
yes or no answer, if you can answer
the question at all that way, do it that way to start with,
and then, if
you need to give an explanation, but first, address the
question precisely or head on; okay?
A. I will try to do my best according to your
question.
Q. Do you recall that, on Friday, I had been asking
you questions
concerning sources of income that you had had or work that
you have been
doing over the past several years for which you have been
receiving pay?
Do you recall that?
A. Something along those lines.
Q. Basically?
A. Basically.
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Q. Do you recall that your answer and my questions
took us to the
spot where you had told me that you had been paid by the
Federal Bureau of Investigations until July of 1975,
at which time, you resigned your position as a paid
informant?
A. That is correct, July the 31st.
Q. And you had told us that you had worked in addition
to working
for the United States and the Republic of Venezuela, for the
Republic of
Cuba in 1959 and 1960, and that those were the only three
governmental agencies - - I'm sorry -- the only three
sovereign governments for whom you have worked -- United
States, Venezuela, and Cuba? Do you recall that?
A. That is right.
Q. You had told us that you were a contract agent for
the C.I.A. attached to something called the 5th Mercenary
Brigade when you were in the Belgium Congo. Do you
recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. You had previously stated that was sometime during
1964?
A. When I arrived in the Congo?
Q. That's my next question to you: When did you arrive
in the Congo?
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A. In 1964.
Q. How long were you --
A. I came back on or about the beginning of 1965.
Q. You told us that you were a contract agent for the
Central Intelligence Agency.
My understanding is that a contract agent is somebody who
is, in effect, hired for a particular purpose owing to that
person's unique skills or expertise; is that correct, as
opposed to being a full-time employee?
A. Not exactly, Douglas, because I was already in the
C.I.A. when
I had handpicked to perform that mission over there in the
Congo.
Q. What do you mean when you say you were in the
C.I.A.?
A. Yes, I had already spent some time with them, about
a year of training.
Q. Were you a full-time Central Intelligence Agency
employee?
A. At one point, yes.
Q. Were you, at the point in time that you went to the
Congo, a full-time C.I.A. employee?
A. I was fired two weeks before.
Q. Why?
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A. We got a brawl with the C.O.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. We had a brawl with the C.O., the Case Office.
Q. Who was the "we"?
A. The rest of the team. The whole team was
fired.
Q. Tell me what it means to be a contract agent?
A. A contract agent?
Q. For the C.I.A.?
A. For the C.I.A. is when you sign up a contract with
them for performing duties related to their operation.
Q. Is it for one particular venture or undertaking or
situation as opposed to being just an ongoing employee or
employer relationship?
A. Yes, and you can -- you either sign up for one
year, two years.
There might be an exclusionary clause about renewal, renew
of your contract or whatever.
Q. But, it is primarily for one particular venture or
campaign or
purpose; is that correct?
A. It could be.
Q. Is it more commonly that?
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A. I don't know that.
Q. In your experience given the other people that you
have known and have had contacts with the Central
Intelligence Agency over the years, is it more likely that a
contract agent is hired toward one particular end in
connection with one particular case or situation?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. But, it could be?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. What I am trying to have you do is to tell me the
distinctions
between a regular agent and a contract agent?
A. I cannot answer that question, because I have never
been a staff agent.
Q. Is that the term that is used -- "staff agent"?
A. Yes.
Douglas, just for the record, there is a new law that I
don't --when it
is going to be, you know, into effect, with regard to the
disclosures and
things with regard about names and things like that, and I
hope that you
will not be, you know, push me into, up the wall about
disclosing names of
C.I.A. agents or anything like that along those lines,
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PAGE 11
because I will be breaking the law, which I am not intending
to do.
I want to point out to you that there is a law going into
effect.
I don't know when or where.
It's all over the papers. You should know that.
Everybody knows that; okay?
Q. For your own edification, there is no such law
presently in effect, and if it is passed by the Congress, it
will apply only to public disclosure in any mass medium,
which is to say, in the newspaper or a television or in
a radio broadcast. This I not public disclosure, but
in any event, there
is no such law, and I don't even know if it will become
pertinent.
MS. COHAN: In any event, I will object to the privilege if
it comes to pass.
MR. CARHART: Privilege of what?
MS. COHAN: National security.
MR. WILLIAMS: Executive privilege. It doesn't work for
the president, but it may work for the State Attorney in
Dade County.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When you signed on as a contract agent for this
affair or undertaking in the Belgium Congo, for how long was
your contract?
A. Duration of the war.
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I was -- it would have last forever.
Q. During that period of time, were you being paid
directly by the Central Intelligence Agency, or were you
being paid through some Conduit or
front that they had established?
A. The money was deposited at a savings account that
it was open by the support agents down here in Miami under
the name of my first wife.
Q. Was the money with the deposits being made in the
form of checks drawn on the Treasury of the United States --
A. That, I don't know. Reflected in her savings
account book or whatever it was.
Q. Let me ask you this: At this time, Mr. Morales, and
it's a convenient spot at which to do it -- you have come to
be aware; have you not, sir, of certain incidents that have
recently taken place involving people who are defendants or
who were defendants in this case; specifically, one Rafael
Villaverde?
Have you recently come be aware of a situation that occurred
involving Rafael
Villaverde?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Have you heard that Mr. Villaverde is lost and
apparently presumed dead at sea as a result of boating
accident?
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MR. COHAN: Objection. Hearsay.
You may answer.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Have you heard that?
A. It's all over the papers.
Q. Is that a yes?
MS. COHAN: I believe so.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Have you spoken directly with any of the defendants
in this case or any relatives of any of the defendants in
this case or any relatives of people who, up until the time
of their death, had been defendants in this case about or
concerning Rafael Villaverde and his apparent loss at
sea? Have you spoken to anyone about that?
MS. COHAN: Objection. Compound question.
Please rephrase as to each individual category.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you understand the question, Ricky?
A. It's so lengthy that, as I pointed out to you
before, you break it down, and I will give you yes or
no.
Q. Let me break it down.
Have you spoken with any of the defendants
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in this case any time since Friday morning, let's say, 9:00
o'clock on April the 2nd about or in any way concerning
Rafael Villaverde's disappearance and
death?
A. Negative.
Q. Have you spoken with any of the defendants in this
case at all
since the fact of Mr. Villaverde's apparent disappearance
and death was first
discovered or made know about the fact or anything related
to it?
A. Negative.
Q. Have you spoken with any of the relatives of any of
the defendants in this case, which is to say, the husband or
wife, as the case may be, of any defendant, the children of
any defendant, the parents of any defendant, the brothers,
sisters, any relatives of any defendants?
A. Negative.
Q. (Continuing) -- about the fact of Rafael
Villaverde's disappearance or anything related to it?
A. Negative.
Q. Have you spoken to any such people about anything
at all since
Wednesday of last week?
A. To whom?
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Q. Any relative or any defendant?
A. Negative.
Q. Have you spoken to any member of Rafael
Villaverde's family at
all since Wednesday of last week?
A. I already answered that question.
Q. No, I am asking specifically --
MS. COHAN: Wednesday of last week?
THE WITNESS: Negative.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. I am asking you specifically if you spoke to any --
A. Negative.
Q. Shush.
A. Don't shush me, Douglas. Then, we will start
arguing against each other.
I am in a very good mood today, Douglas.
Don't shush me.
Q. We have to have a full question in the record
before you answer, so will you let me finish my question
before you answer?
A. Then, you will let me finish my answers?
Q. If it's appropriate.
A. It's appropriate.
Q. The question is, have you spoken with any
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member of Rafael Villaverde's family specifically since
Wednesday of last week?
A. Negative.
Q. Mr. Morales, how long have you known any of the
Villaverde brothers?
A. The whole family?
Q. Yes.
A. We were from the same neighborhood.
Q. In Cuba, in Havana?
A. Uh huh, Havana.
Q. Which members of the Villaverde family have you
known personally over the years since living near them in
Cuba?
A. Since when?
Q. From whenever you began to know them?
MR. CARHART: Let's put a date into that.
When you say you are from the same neighborhood, do you mean
you've known them since childhood -- at least some of the
members of the Villaverde family?
THE WITNESS: The household, when you grow up in a
neighborhood --
MR. WILLIAMS: Since your childhood?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
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BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Whom have you known in that fashion -- which of the
members of
the family?
A. Well, the priest.
Q. What's his name?
A. Well, Father Villaverde.
At one point, it was my confessor.
Q. Do you know his first name?
A. Father Villaverde.
Q. Well, do you know his Christian name, his given
name?
A. No, sir, Father Villaverde.
Raul, Rafael, Jorge, and I believe that I was aware that
there was a sister.
Q. But, in any event, you have known them all, the
ones whom you have mentioned, since your childhood in
Havana?
A. El Vedado.
Q. So, you've known them all since childhood there?
A. I was aware, and they were there.
Q. Here's what I need to know, Ricky, I mean, it's one
thing to be aware of the existence of somebody else, and
it's another thing to have an ongoing acquaintanceship or
friendship with them.
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A. Yes, you say hello to the kids, you know, driving
your bicycle
by. I had a normal childhood. I believe in Santa
Claus.
Q. Were you friendly with any of the Villaverde
brothers during childhood, or did you just have an
acquaintanceship with them?
A. Sort of acquaintanceship.
Q. Has there ever been a time when you would describe
your relationship with any one or more of the Villaverde
family as being antagonistic or hostile?
A. Yes and no. It's the ups and down in life.
Q. So, there have been sometimes --
A. After we were grownups. Not to the point of,
you know, cutting throats or anything like that.
Q. Of the various members of the Villaverde family
whom you have known, with whom did you ever have now and
again or from time to time, a hostile relationship or an
unfriendly relationship?
A. With none of them.
Q. I just asked you a minute ago whether there were
times when you had an unfriendly relationship, and you said
yes or no from time to time?
A. From time to time, friends, you know, tend
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PAGE 19
to disagree into something or stop, you know, stop talking
to each other for, you know, maybe two, three weeks, you
know.
"I don't want to talk to you today. I disagree on this
and that with everybody".
It's not a seriousness that you are trying to convey into my
mouth. It never happened.
Q. Was there ever a time when you took some
affirmative step or purposeful action toward harming or
disadvantaging any member of the Villaverde family or trying
to do something that will hurt, not necessarily physically,
but hurt, in any way, hurt the interests of any member of
the Villaverde family?
A. No.
Q. At the time of the Castro revolution in Cuba, did
you hold any
kind of employment either immediately prior to the
revolution or immediately
after the revolution with the Fidel Castro organization?
A. I already answered to you that question.
Q. What was your answer?
MS. COHAN: Objection.
Can you read back the question, Joycee?
(Whereupon, the question referred to was read into the
record by the court reporter.)
MR. WILLIAMS: I suppose the record should
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reflect that the witness has gotten up and walked out of the
room.
MS. COHAN: And will return.
MR. WILLIAMS: I assume that he will.
MS. COHAN: And we will take this opportunity for a brief
recess.
MR. CARHART: What is the purpose of the witness leaving the
room -- to confer with you?
MS. COHAN: I assume the same as me. I have to go to
the restroom.
(Off the record.)
MS. COHAN: You may answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. What was that employment, please?
A. I was a member of the Military Intelligence,
Special Agent.
MR. CARHART: From what date to what date?
MS. COHAN: Objection.
MR. CARHART: If Mr. Williams doesn't cover that, then, I
have no objections to you coming in, but I don't want any
double double teaming.
MR. CARHART: You don't want him double teamed? Okay.
Ask the date from what date to what date,
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Douglas.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. What were the dates of your employment, please?
A. September, 1959 until, let's say, that I went
underground in the summer of 1960, on or about July.
Q. Did you go underground by breaking your ties with
the Castro government?
A. Of course.
Q. How did you do that?
A. To go underground?
Q. Yes. Did you stay in Cuba?
A. From one place to another. Safe houses.
They were chasing me all over Havana.
Q. Was the agency or department in which you were employed
the one called G2?
A. It was called the D.I.E.R. first. Then, they
switched names to G2.
Q. What do the letters D.I.E.R. specify?
A. Departamento de Inteligencia del Ejercito Rebelde.
Q. What was the business or the function of D.I.E.R.
or G2 -- whichever? What was the purpose?
A. It's a political police.
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Q. What specifically was it aimed or targeted at
doing?
A. The opposition.
Q. To do what to them?
A. To the opposition to the government.
Q. What was it supposed to do to the opposition?
Did it find them or exterminate them or what?
A. My position was to uncover subversive organizations
at the beginning, especially the members of the already
overthrown dictatorship of General Batista.
Q. How did you come to first hold the position in
whatever the forerunner of D.I.E.R. was before Castro came
to power?
A. There was no information runner to D.I.E.R.
The G2 came afterwards.
Q. Then, your employment with that agency began after
Castro had seized power of Cuba?
A. That is right.
Q. There was a court system of some kind set up in
Cuba after the
revolution; wasn't there?
A. (No response.)
Q. Shortly after the revolution?
A. Sure.
Q. As I recall, the court system consisted of
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what would be called military tribunals?
A. That is right.
Q. And the Courts would convene for the purpose of
trying such as
it was the charges that were lodged against people who were
accused of being disloyal to the incoming revolutionary
establishment; is that correct?
A. It's correct about the disloyalty. It is
correct about whoever was opposing them.
Q. If I substitute the word "opposition" for
"disloyalty," would that make it correct, then?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, people who were accused of doing
acts or engaging in conduct that was in opposition to the
revolution; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Were the courts that were established immediately
following the revolution courts that depended upon the
testimony of live witnesses in order to present and decide
the charges against individuals who were accused?
A. Yes, sir, because the military tribunals were the
ones deciding what kind of charges would be brought up
against whoever was being accused or whoever had been caught
during the commission of overt acts
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or covert acts against the revolution.
Q. In arriving at that decision or at any other
decision that the
courts had to make, did they rely, at least in part, upon
the presentation
of evidence against the people who were accused?
A. Yes, sir Those were kangaroo trials.
Q. Did you ever testify in any of those proceedings?
A. Twice.
Q. When you gave testimony in those proceedings, was
it by virtue
of your position or capacity as an agent of the Intelligence
Service of the government?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you ever, in the course of those proceedings,
give testimony against any member of the Villaverde
family?
A. Never. I never arrest any of them.
Q. I am asking you whether you gave any testimony
against any member of the Villaverde family?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever participate, in any way, in the
evidence gathering procedure with regard to any charges that
were ever filed against any member of the Villaverde family?
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A. No, sir
Q. Did you ever participate, in any way, either
directly or indirectly in any phase of a prosecution against
any member of the Villaverde family in which that person was
charged with any kind of conduct against or contrary to the
interest of the Castro organization?
A. Negative.
Q. Are you able to remember the two trails or
proceedings in which you did testify?
A. Fairly.
Q. Are you able to remember the names of the persons
who were the
accused in those proceedings?
A. The first proceedings, there was a former sergeant
from the Intelligence Department.
Q. What was his name?
A. Last name, the best that I can remember, was Tasis.
Q. What was that person charged with?
A. Subversive activities, intent to hijacking.
Q. Was he convicted?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. What became of him?
A. He served his time, and eventually, he came over to
the United
States.
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Q. What part did you play in his prosecution?
A. I was a witness to the government.
Q. Had you also participated in the gathering of
evidence against
him prior to the convening of the tribunal?
A. Some of it.
Q. Who was, or who were the accused in the other
proceeding that you can recall if you are able to recall?
A. In the other proceeding, there was a bunch of
employees of Cubana Aviacion.
Q. Do you remember who they were, particularly?
A. They were so many. It was a mass operation
that took place at Havana Airport, which where I was
stationed at the time, and there was mass defection of
pilots and sabotages spread out throughout the aircraft and
of the airport facilities, and I participated in the
investigation and collection of evidence in the arrests.
Q. Do you remember the names, specifically, of any
people who were charged in connection with this general
situation?
A. Let me jog my memory for a while, so I might come
up with a few names.
Not offhand now, Douglas. You know --
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Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Villaverde
brother named Jorge eventually was prosecuted and convicted
of some offense against the Castro government resulting in
his having been imprisoned for approximately eighteen years?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you have any part or participation in any
aspect of any part of the process as a result of which Jorge
Villaverde was investigated, arrested, prosecuted,
convicted, or imprisoned -- any part?
A. No is the answer to the investigation. No is
the answer to the arrest because by the time that he was
arrested, I was already in the Brazilian Embassy, and
whatever happened afterwards, I wasn't there.
Q. So, you had no participation in any of that?
A. Not at all.
I recall something. I never testified because I
mentioned before that I testified twice when there was an
Intelligence agent down there, and I want
to correct myself because by the time that the airline, the
Cuban airline case came up for trial, I was already in the
Brazilian Embassy or in the United
States by the time that they faced the military
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PAGE 28
tribunal to -- I want to correct myself.
Q. So, you did not testify there?
A. No, I never testified there.
Q. Some of the people testified -- you know, whoever
they were, you know, but I was not there.
Q. You said you were already in the Brazilian Embassy
or already in the United States?
A. Whatever.
Q. One of the two?
A. Whatever comes first.
Best of my ability to jog my memory now, when they come up
to trial, I believe that I was already here in the States.
MR. CARHART: Douglas, you asked, but he did not really
answer as to how
he came to be a member of the D.I.E.R., also known as G2.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I had asked him that, we hadn't covered
it completely.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. How did you come to be a member of an agent of the
D.I.E.R.?
A. Based upon a letter of recommendation of a personal
friend of mine who was a major and who was the head of the
Intelligence Department of the national, Cuban Police, and
instead of he
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PAGE 29
having me working for me, he recommended me for the
military.
Q. What was his name?
A. Raul Diaz Arguiles.
Q. Had you had any prior t raining in the intelligence
craft at the time that the letter of recommendation was made
for you by Mr. Diaz?
A. Nope.
Q. Then, this would have been yours first venture into
the intelligence business or crafts; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What had you done before that?
A. I was a student.
Q. How far did you get in school before you went to
work for the government?
A. I finished my high school at St. George.
There was a war going on, so all the educational facilities
were closed
down in 1957.
Q. Is the one called Raul Diaz Arguiles presently in
the United States?
A. General Raul Diaz Arguiles died during the fight in
the Angola.
Q. Obviously, then, he remained part of the Castro
Regime as a result of which he went to
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PAGE 30
Angola to fight; is that correct?
A. It's obvious.
Q. I just needed to be stated for the record, anyway.
A. It's obvious.
Q. Is that correct, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. Are there any persons whom you know or believe to
be relatives
of Diaz Arguiles who presently live in the United States?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. What kind of training did you get, Mr. Morales,
when you first
signed on with D.I.E.R.?
A. At the beginning, none.
Q. Just, "Here's a badge, here's a gun, go out and do
it"?
A. That is right.
Q. So, you were kind of self-taught from the
beginning; is that it?
A. Street wise. I learned, you know.
Nobody was really capable of performing that kind of
profession in the sense of having received a formal training
before getting into that kind of a situation, so I have to
learn over the road, on the road.
-------------------------------
PAGE 31
Q. What kind of training had you gotten before -- just
--
A. Before what?
Q. I thought you said that you had gotten some kind of
training before?
A. Before what?
Q. Joining D.I.E.R.?
A. Never.
No, no, no. Douglas, Douglas, I answered no, so why
you have to go backtrack again with the same question?
Q. Because I thought you said something contrary.
A. Oh, you thought?
Q. Now, here's the question: When you were living in
Havana before the revolution during your early, middle teen
years, was your family what would be described as affluent
or not affluent?
A. My father was a judge for forty years, and he died
on the Bench, and my grandfather was a Chief Justice of the
Provence of Havana.
Q. So, when you joined D.I.E.R., G2, you were just
starting from scratch and learning as you went?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did the time come when you got any kind of
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PAGE 32
formal training?
A. Yes, we were sent to school in the outskirts of
Havana where we were taught the basics, you know, of
investigation, procedures, and very few
things. Not that many compared with the perspective of
the training t hat I got afterwards.
Q. Did you have any contract with the Villaverde
family either immediately prior to the revolution of
subsequently to the revolution until you left Havana
and came to the United States?
A. A few occasions saying hello to them in the
neighborhood.
Q. Who of them would you see?
A. All of them.
I used to hang out at the Woolworth, the 5 and 10 store,
that it was a gathering place for all the kids in the
neighborhood, and they lived a half block away from there,
and e very time that said -- hello, hello, hello, an that's
it.
Q. So, you continued to see them after the revolution?
A. I saw them on several occasions and the father -- I
mean, not the father, the one who is a priest.
I was involved in an accident while I was
-------------------------------
PAGE 33
riding one of the G2 patrol cars. You know, it was a
complete mess, and I broke my pelvis, you know, and things
like that, and when I was transported to a hospital close to
the airport, and I came back to my senses again, there was
him there, you know, and since I though that I was going to
die, he was my confessor, and he kept visiting me after I
was in the proceeding.
He was not paying any attention to me.
MR. CARHART: I am listening to you, Mr. Morales.
MR. WILLIAMS: I am listening to everything you are saying.
MR. CARHART: The court reporter is taking it.
THE WITNESS: And afterwards, when I went to the Brazilian
Embassy, Father Villaverde visited me there on several
occasions, and he was taking my confession.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Since coming to the United States, have you had any
encounters
of any sort, whether in person or over the telephone, with
any member of
the Villaverde family that was a negative or hostile or
antagonist sort?
-------------------------------
PAGE 34
A. You have to be more specific about it.
Q. What about it do you not understand?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Have you, at any time since coming into the United
States, engaged in any kind of an argument with any of the
Villaverdes?
A. Oh, with Rafael, 150,000 times -- friendly, not
friendly, not so friendly. He was a character.
Q. Do you recall t he subjects about which you argued
more vehemently or more aggressively than others?
A. Phone calls in the middle of the night with some
raspberries over the telephone.
Q. Who was doing the calling?
A. Rafael.
Q. Did you ever call him in the middle of the night?
A. Oh, I returned the raspberries to him.
Q. Have you ever threatened any member of the
Villaverde family with any kind of physical harm?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever told anybody else that you ha ve
threatened any member of the Villaverde family with physical
harm?
A. No, sir.
-------------------------------
PAGE 35
Q. Do you know a man by the name to Carlos Lopez Ona?
A. Of course.
Q. Who and what is he?
A. Oh, I used to enjoy him so much for fifteen years,
you know. Several times we have been even
roommates.
Q. Where does he live presently?
A. In Fountainbleau Boulevard, Fountainbleau Park.
Q. Oh, here in Miami?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how old he is approximately, now?
A. Oh, Carlos is over fifty.
Q. Do you know what he does for a living?
A. He has a pest control.
Q. Have you, in the past, had any arguments or
disagreements with
Mr. Lopez Ona?
MS. COHAN: Objection as to the relevance and materiality to
this case.
You may answer it.
MR. WILLIAMS: Lawyers put legal objections in the record
quite frequently that have nothing to do with you.
-------------------------------
PAGE 36
THE WITNESS: What shall I do now?
MS. COHAN: Answer.
MR. WILLIAMS: Answer.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Have you had any fight or argument or disagreement with
Carlos Lopez
Ona within the past year?
A. Carlos is my friend. I am his friend.
Q. Is that a yes or no, Mr. Morales?
A. That is a no.
Q. Have you ever had any conversations with Lopez Ona
pertaining to any member of the Villaverde family in the
course of which you made any statements indicating an
intention to do harm to any Villaverde?
A. Bodily harm?
Q. Any kind lf harm?
A. Bodily harm? That's the only harm that I, you
know, can understand from you.
Q. Well, Mr. Morales --
A. Because a raspberry is a mental harm.
All depends on how you pick it.
Q. If somebody blows up your car, even if you aren't
the one in it, then, that's a kind of harm; isn't it?
You don't regard that as being harmful?
A. Having your car broken up? Yes, that was
-------------------------------
PAGE 37
harmful to me, but I can never make any kind --
Q. You are asking me now if I meant bodily harm, and I
am saying,
any kind of harm whether bodily or not.
Have you ever engaged in conversations with Lopez Ona in the
course of which you discussed the doing of any harm to any
member of the Villaverde family?
A. No, sir.
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Earlier, Mr. Williams asked you about whether you
had conversations with anyone since Wednesday.
Have you left any phone messages for anyone regarding the
Villaverdes regarding this case?
A. With regard to Carlos Lopez Ona, yes, I called over
his, you know, tape recording machine, and I made some sort
of a statement with regard that, you know, whatever
disagreements, you know, I might have with him, you know,
with them, that I really felt, you know, shocked, or you
know, disappointment.
You might say that I really have feelings about him not
being around, that I --
Q. Who not being around?
-------------------------------
PAGE 38
A. Huh?
Q. Who not being around?
A. Rafael according to, you know, newspapers, and
things like that.
Q. When did you do that?
A. It was either Saturday or Friday. It was
during the weekend -- that I, you know, feel some sympathy
for the family.
Q. Did you have any contact with Raul Villaverde?
A. No, sir.
Q. Specifically, his son?
A. No, sir.
Q. What?
A. His son? No, I don't know his son.
MS. COHAN: What's his son's name?
MR. CARHART: I don't know.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Since last Wednesday, have you called anyone and
made any threats to them?
A. Threats?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, sir.
Q. Going back to your activities in Cuba with D.I.E.R.
did you ever attempt to recruit any members of D.I.E.R. or
G2 that you met during the course
of duties with that organization for other organizations?
A. That was not part of my job.
Q. After you left D.I.E.R. or G2, did you ever try to
recruit any
persons who you had known in that capacity for any other
organizations such
as for the Venezuelan government or the United States
government?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
Were you successful?
A. Yes.
Q. What techniques did you use in an effort to recruit
such persons? By that, I mean, persuasion, coercion,
bribery?
A. Ideological.
Q. Okay. Do you mean in terms of persuading
someone as to the ideological?
A. You don't have to persuade anybody about
ideology. Once you detect that that person is not a
believer into what he supposed to be believing, you can make
a different approach to the individual without using any
other kind of techniques, and that was very common, you
know, at the beginning while,
you know, people getting disenchanted with the communist
government.
-------------------------------
PAGE 40
Q. While you were working for the Venezuela
government, did you attempt to recruit any persons for that
government?
A. For what government?
Q. The Venezuelan government?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you successful?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you attempt to recruit any persons you knew had
been working for the United States government to go to work
for the Venezuelan government?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it for the Venezuelan government that you
recruited persons you had known in D.I.E.R.?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever sought to recruit anyone working for
D.I.E.R. to
work for the United States government?
A. Yes.
Q. Are there any other persons who are presently
defendants in this case known as the Tick-Talk Investigation
whom you knew in Cuba?
A. Can I see the list?
MS. COHAN: Sure (handing to the witness).
-------------------------------
PAGE 41
THE WITNESS: You want a rundown of everyone? Okay.
Roberto Ortega, the Villaverdes --
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Excuse me. Let's go one at a time.
You knew Roberto Ortega in Cuba?
A. We were classmates.
Q. At what level, what school, for example?
A. Classmates.
Q. I understand that, but you went to more than one
school; didn't you?
A. Huh?
Q. You went to more than one school; didn't you?
A. Huh?
Q. You went to more than one school; didn't you?
A. Of course, in La Salle School.
Q. At what level are we talking about -- primary
school? Are we talking about high school?
A. Primary, grammar, and at least one year in high
school, I believe.
Q. So, you've known him most of your life?
A. Most of my childhood.
Q. Who else?
A. As far as I can see here, nobody else besides the
Villaverdes and Roberto.
MS. COHAN: For the record, he is currently
-------------------------------
PAGE 42
looking at the cover sheet on the new Information, which is
not inclusive of those defendants who were on the old
Information, which I will now get.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Of the four Villaverde brothers, which one were you
closest to, would you say?
A. In what span of time?
Q. Well, let's start out in Havana.
A. No, no.
Well, in Havana, the priest.
Since, you know, I mad my confession to him, you might say
that I was closer to him than to the other ones.
Q. Aside from the fact that he assisted you in the
performance of
his clerical duties, which brother would you say you were
closest to?
A. To none.
Q. You were only casually acquainted with all of them?
A. You might say that.
Q. Pardon?
A. Yes.
Q. After coming to the United States, which one were
you closest to?
A. Rafael.
-------------------------------
PAGE 43
Q. Did you see Jorge anytime while he was in the
custody of the Cuban government?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any communication with him?
A. No.
MS. COHAN: Ricardo, I have files over here with names.
I don't know where my list is.
MR. CARHART: Do you want to show him the box?
MS. COHAN : Yes.
Victor Angulo, Juan Abuchaibe, Vernon Appleby, Alfredo
Arias, Joseph M.
Bernal, Porfirio Bonet, David Butler, Louis Caporaso --
MR. WILLIAMS: Slow Down, Rina.
MS. COHAN: I assume he will stop -- Alejandro Ceballos,
Frank Condom-Gil--
THE WITNESS: Oh Frank -- well, not Frank.
I am sorry. Not Frank.
I was aware of Frank's presence, but I knew Ronnie, his
brother. He worked at the same spot that I was working
in Cuba.
BY MR. CARHART:
Where was that?
A. Havana International Airport. He was a
Customs agent there at the time that I was a G2
-------------------------------
PAGE 44
agent there.
Q. Okay, but --
A. But his name is not in the first list.
Q. I understand that. That's why we are
supplementing that list.
MS. COHAN: Julio Cornell, Rene De La Paz, Osvaldo De La
Vega, Raul Diaz
-- different one -- Eduardo, a/k/a Pedro, Jose A. Fernandez,
Juan B. Fernandez, Miguel Fernandez, Nereida Fernandez,
Roger Fernandez --
THE WITNESS: Oh Roger Fernandez, yes.
BY MR. CARHART:
How do you know him?
Rogito? He was part of the neighborhood.
Q. So, you knew him from your childhood?
A. Oh, yes, very well.
Q. All right.
MS. COHAN: Alberto Garcia, Bernardo Garcia, Carlos Garcia,
Eloy Garcia,
Lucila Garcia, Walfrido Gill, Esther Hernandez, James
Hunter, David Johnson,
Carlos Luis, Jairo Londono, Jose Marcos, Manuel Perez, Ramon
Puentes -- that's
it -- Carlos Quesada.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. So, you have told us all the people you
-------------------------------
PAGE 45
knew?
A. I believe that I am being very accurate so far.
Q. Does that mean you have told us all you knew from
your days in
Cuba?
A. From the names that I have heard so far, yes, sir.
Q. Had you participated in any revolutionary
activities during that period of time when Castro was in
contention with Batista?
A. You mean, Armstrong?
Q. Yes, as a saboteur?
A. No, no saboteur. I was a kid. I got
enough problems, you know, just to have a book under my
shoulder.
Q. What date did you go to work for D.I.E.R.?
A. On or about September, 1959.
Q. How old were you, then?
A. At that time, twenty years old, I believe.
MR. CARHART: Have you taken him to the point where he leaves
D.I.E.R.?
MR. WILLIAMS: No.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Okay.
You told us you left D.I.E.R. I believe
-------------------------------
PAGE 46
in June of --
A. Well, it was not D.I.E.R. It was G2 by that
time.
Q. Okay. You left G2 when?
A. July, on or about July.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1960.
Q. Where did you go, then?
A. Safe houses.
Q. In Havana?
A. In Havana, and eventually, in September, I was able
to obtain political asylum at the Brazilian Embassy.
Q. Where did that lead you to?
A. That lead me to 82 days of nightmare, and
eventually, to a flight in Pan American to Miami, Pan
American Airlines to Miami.
Q. What do you mean by "82 days of nightmare"?
Do you mean you spent that time in the Brazilian Embassy?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. Trying to get out of Cuba?
A. Waiting for a safe conduct.
Q. What was nightmarish about it other than the
stress, perhaps, of waiting to succeed in
-------------------------------
PAGE 47
removing yourself from the Country? Were you accused
there, for example?
A. There were the milicia people marching around the
embassy compound screaming, you know, "Paredon.
Paredon". That means, the fighting, traitors, and
things like that on a daily basis.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Were you interrogated or in any way accused in the
Brazilian Embassy while you were there?
A. NO.
Q. Are you armed at this time?
A. No, sir (indicating).
MS. COHAN: Sit down, Ricardo.
MS. CARHART: All you have to do is answer the question.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Have you had any conversations with any member of
the State Attorney's Office or the Miami Police Department
or any o the police agency since your deposition ended on
Friday afternoon?
A. I have been in touch with Diosdado Diaz.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Raul Diaz.
Q. Is that the gentleman with the Public Safety
Department?
-------------------------------
PAGE 48
A. Lieutenant Raul Diaz.
Q. With the Public Safety Department?
A. Homicide.
Q. Who else?
A. Puig, Raul Puig.
Q. He's Miami Police Officer?
A. Over there (indicating).
MR. WILLIAMS: The record should reflect, by the way, that
investigator Raul Puig is sitting just beyond the next door
in the adjacent room.
MR. CARHART: Within earshot.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Okay. Anyone else?
A. After the deposition?
Q. On Friday, yes, sir.
A. On Friday, Ms. Cohan.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Puig, Diosdado, Raul, Rina. I believe that covers
it.
Q. Did you have any discussions about this case or
your testimony
or the facts of this case?
A. The main discussion that it was.
Q. If you will, if you will answer that yes or no, and
then, if you want to explain, I will be
-------------------------------
PAGE 49
happy to let you.
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay.
You had no discussion regarding the case or its facts?
A. No.
Q. When did your deposition start?
A. When did the deposition start? Two days
ago. You mean --
Q. Thursday morning?
A. Thursday morning, I believe it was.
Q. Since the start of the deposition, have you had any
discussions or conversations with any member of the State
Attorney's Office or the Miami Police Department or any
other law enforcement agency regarding the case, your
testimony, or the facts in the case?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was the nature of your conversation with Raul
Diaz?
A. Raul Diaz show up, with the nature, the main
conversation was about the so-called disappearance of Rafael
Villaverde.
That was a big conference, conversation, of course, for the
past four days.
-------------------------------
PAGE 50
Q. Have you reviewed any documents or papers or
photographs since
you commenced your deposition?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that done?
A. Huh?
Q. Where was that done?
A. Well, first, I just reviewed one right now.
Q. You mean, by looking at the Information Face Sheet?
A. Right, right.
Q. Anything else?
A. No, nothing else.
Q. Do you have any notes or any records containing
your own notes
or your own statements pertaining to this case?
A. The one that I made at the last day was legal --
you know, like this one (indicating).
After I walked out of the office, I destroyed it.
Q. You are referring to a legal pad?
A. Yes, I am referring to a legal pad?
A. Notes that you took during questions in the
deposition?
A. Than is right. The way that I am doing
-------------------------------
PAGE 51
today.
Q. All right.
Any other document or notes or reports or records pertaining
to the tape that you have in your possession?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you describe them for me?
A. Is the -- how you call those forms that pertain to my
depositions of
my testimony with MS. Cohan and Officer Diaz and --
Q. Do you have transcriptions or copies of those
statements that you gave?
A. Yes, I have copies.
Q. Copies of what -- transcripts or tapes or what?
A. No, No tapes. I don't have any tapes in my
possession.
What I have is the same papers that you guys -- you know,
you got.
Q. Well, I have a lot of papers.
MS. COHAN: Referring to a sworn statement taken on December
16th.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. You have a transcript of your sworn statement that
you gave to
MS. Cohan?
-------------------------------
PAGE 52
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You were asked to take two polygraphs by the State
Attorney's Office; were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. The first one was on that date?
Q. In December, I believe?
Q. Then, you were asked to come back to the State
Attorney's Office and submit to a second polygraph; were you
not?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. That was in the presence of Sergeant Raul Martinez
and Lieutenant Raul Diaz; is that so?
A. Well, the polygraph was administered not in the
presence of any of those police officers than you have
mentioned.
Q. No, my question was you were asked to take a
second?
A. I was asked by the State Attorney's Office to take
a second one.
Q. That was in a meeting that Sergeant Raul Martinez
and Lieutenant Raul Diaz were present; is than so?
A. They were there.
Q. Right. Did you take the second polygraph?
A. Yes, I did.
-------------------------------
PAGE 53
Q. What was the nature of the inquiry on that second
polygraph?
MS. COHAN: Objection. You are instructed not to answer
on the basis of privilege.
MR. CARHART: Which privilege is that?
MS. COHAN: Not only is it an ongoing investigation, but it
is completely irrelevant and immaterial to this and concerns
matters which are far beyond the scope of the current matter
before the Court.
MR. CARHART: Okay.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. The State Attorney's representative has asked you
not to answer that question. Are you going to honor
her request?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. CARHART: All right. Certify that.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. The matters that you were interrogated on in the
second polygraph, was than based upon information you had
provided?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that information given at approximately the
same time you allegedly gave information about Carlos
Quesada and Roberto Ortega and other persons?
-------------------------------
PAGE 54
A. Yes and no.
Q. Can you explain that to me?
A. Yes and no.
Q. Okay.
A. Let's say that you stuck me with one subject, and
then, you into another subject. That doesn't mean it's
necessarily than has anything to do with the first subject.
Q. No, I wasn't asking you whether there was an
affinity between the subjects. I was asking you if
there was affinity in the time.
Did you give the information upon which you were
interrogated in the second polygraph at approximately the
same time you gave the information which was the subject of
interrogation on the first polygraph?
A. Well, again, yes and no. In regards to the
space and time, yes, sir, and no.
Q. My understanding is the information than was the
subject of interrogation and the first polygraph was given
by you in November and December of 1980 and January of 1981;
is that correct?
A. It's fairly correct.
Q. The information you were interrogated on in the
second polygraph, when did you give that?
-------------------------------
PAGE 55
A. In the course of those three months that you
already mentioned.
I believe that I answered your question, Mr. Carhart.
Q. Well, of course, the record will reflect whether
you did or not. I wasn't aware that you had.
Did you give any other information regarding -- well, let me
set the question up, so you will understand what I am
saying.
It is your contention that the information you were
interrogated on in a second polygraph, although given during
the same time period, did not relate to the information
concerning Ortega, Quesada, the Villaverdes, and whatnot; is
that your contention?
A. As far as I've been instructed by the State
Attorney's Office,
that is correct.
Q. I am not interested in their instruction. I
am asking you as to your knowledge.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you give them any other information concerning
other "unrelated areas" during the same period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. Were your polygraphed as to those?
A. No, I was polygraphed --
-------------------------------
PAGE 56
Q. Pieces of information?
A. No, no, no. I believe that you've got it
wrong.
I was polygraphed to all the information that I
provide. I never provide any other information that I
provide. I never provide any other information then
because I was not polygraphed. I was being polygraphed
on everything, you know, that I was telling them.
Q. Do you agree with Ms. Cohan's contention that
apparently the information related to at least two different
matters, or was it actually more than two different matters?
MS. COHAN: Objection as to how many matters and relevance.
You may answer, if you can, as to how many matters it was.
THE WITNESS: I cannot pinpoint how many matters or why you
come up to the name of matters or --it was one, two, three.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Was it two or more?
A. Maybe more than two. Maybe three.
You know, it's so vague -- your question, Mr. Carhart, that
you no make
it --
Q. Well, the problem with that is because you
-------------------------------
PAGE 57
are withholding information from me.
A. So, I am no withholding information from you.
I am just telling you that I never count how many matters,
or you know, what the matter applies to or what.
MR. WILLIAMS: Ricky as you sit here now --
THE WITNESS: Now, if, you know -- wait, wait, wait.
MS. COHAN: Mr. Williams, I will object.
Mr. Carhart is doing this line of questioning.
Mr. Williams: Let me just see if we can straighten this area
out.
As you sit here now, can you think back in your head and
segment or separate the different specific episodes or
situations that were the subject of that second polygraph
examination?
THE WITNESS: I can't, Douglas. I can't.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Were you given any other polygraphs at the request
of the State Attorney's Office during this period of time --
I'm talking about November of 1980 through, let's say,
February of 1981, other than the two we have discussed
here this morning?
A. No, Mr. Carhart.
Q. Had you ever taken a polygraph examination
-------------------------------
PAGE 58
before you took one at the request of the State Attorney's
Office in this time period?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. When is the first time you ever took a polygraph
examination?
A. C.I.A., I believe.
Q. Pardon me?
A. The C.I.A.
Q. When?
A. Maybe 1963, 1962, 1963.
Q. Before you gave the or submitted to the two
polygraph examinations, what was that -- December of 1980
was the first one?
A. Whenever it was. One or about.
Q. The one with Mr. Dixon?
A. Yes, Mr. Dixon.
Q. How many times would you say you've been
polygraphed before that?
A. I would say at least on a couple of occasions.
Q. When you say a couple, are you meaning two?
A. Yes, I'm meaning two.
Q. Had you ever submitted to any polygraph
examinations at the request of the representatives of the
United States Government?
-------------------------------
PAGE 59
A. Yes.
Q. For example, you're familiar with an investigation
in 1978-1979 in which Mr. Quesada started out as the
principal of the -- one of the principal targets; is that
correct?
A. That is right.
Q. Did you submit to any polygraph examinations during
the course
of than investigation?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever received any training in
administering polygraph
examinations?
A. Not exactly, but I have been present while
polygraph examinations have been administered several
occasions.
Q. In the course of what duties -- duties with the
Venezuelan government, duties with the United States
government, duties with the Cuban government?
A. Duties with the Venezuelan government.
Q. To go back to my question, have you actually
received any formal training in the art of polygraph?
A. Not the formal training.
Q. Informal training, which somebody outlined for you
the principles and techniques used?
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PAGE 60
A. Of course.
Q. When and where did you receive that type of
informal training?
A. It's not informal training.
You cannot -- I'm sorry, Mr. Carhart, you know, don't put
words in my mouth.
That was not considered and is not considered an informal
training. It's just that there were persons who are
qualified polygraph technicians who were administering
polygraph tests to individuals, and I was there, and since I
was there, I took the interest in asking questions to the
individual how you do this, how you do that, how this works,
you know, things like that.
Q. What individual are you speaking of?
A. Oh, I am speaking about an Israeli agent, and I am
speaking about an American polygraph technician.
Q. When did you get this information from the Israeli
technician?
A. During the course of the examination of one of the
hijackers of an Air France Airliner that belonged to the
F.L.P.L. Organization o Dr. George Habash.
MR. WILLIAMS: George Habash?
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PAGE 61
THE WITNESS: You don't know who George Habash is?
MR. WILLIAMS: Spell it to her, please.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. You should know how to spell.
MR. WILLIAMS: Spell your word for the record.
THE WITNESS: Okay. H-a-b-a-s-h.
To the best of my recollection, it's H-a-b-a-s-h, Dr.
Geroge, so this individual, he was one of a member of that
radical group from the P.L.O., and he participated in some
sort of a massacre at the Oralee Airport in Paris in 1975,
and he was caught in Venezuela by DISIP, and an Israeli
agent was sent down there to interrogate this individual,
and part of the interrogation was the transmission of a
polygraph test.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Can you name some other occasions where you had the
opportunity to witness or participate in polygraph
examinations?
A. Yes. During the course of the Niehaus kidnaping, it
was the first time that I actually, I do believe, that kind
of technique was employed since the nature of the kidnaping
of this
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PAGE 62
industrialist down there, so, it was administered to the
employees of the Owens-Illinois Corporation in Venezuela.
Q. Would you give me a date on that?
A. Niehaus was kidnapped in February, so I don't know
-- early 1970's. 1976, too.
Q. Any other occasions?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you done any reading on your own in the
literature of polygraph?
A. No, sir.
Q. Any of these training schools that you went to in
the course of your life where a portion of the training
school was devoted to interrogation techniques including
polygraph exams?
A. I have to answer that question in two parts,
because I have received training in interrogation
techniques, but I never received any kind of a training
in polygraph.
Q. So, the answer is no?
A. To the polygraph.
Q. For the polygraph, and on the two occasions that
you say you participated in people being interrogated by
polygraph, did you find the results to be
satisfactory? Did you find them to be an
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PAGE 63
effective means of interrogation?
A. The results of the Israelis -- I was not privileged
to that.
Did I say anything funny? Just to join you?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I was thinking about the way in which the
Israeli agent probably conducted his interrogation of this
fellow.
THE WITNESS: I join. I join in that.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. Well, did he use other techniques other than
polygraph?
A. Who?
Q. The Israeli agent?
A. No, and the results of the Owens-Illinois employees
-- those were privileged of the corporation down there, and
the DISIP was informed. Well, actually, we never got
the results because there was a development in
the case that cleared up any participation by employees of
the corporation in the kidnaping, so what I am trying to
explain to you is that at the same time that the polygraph
was going on, we picked up, you know, the proper lead
to the kidnappers.
Q. Other developments made it unnecessary for you to
rely upon the polygraph examination; is that
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PAGE 64
correct?
A. Huh?
Q. Other factors made it unnecessary for you to reply
upon the results of the polygraph examination?
A. That is correct.
Q. Nevertheless, did you form any opinion as to the
efficacies of
such an examination?
A. Oh, I do have made my mind up, my mind about
polygraph tests throughout the years.
J. What is your opinion of them?
A. They are very, very effective.
Q. Any qualifications on that?
A. Qualifications on that?
Q. Yes.
A. I am not -- what do you mean? Hold on a
second. What do you mean -- "qualifications"?
Q. I am asking for your views.
A. My views?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. My opinion is that they are effective.
Q. Period?
A. Period.
MR. WILLIAMS: What Mr. Carhart was asking you, when you said
qualifications, do you mean to say that all the time, under
any circumstances,
-------------------------------
PAGE 65
polygraph is effective, or do you think they are generally
effective, but there are some situations in which they are
not quite as good or some cases or some people -- something
like that?
THE WITNESS: As far as I am concerned, they are
effective. It is my opinion.
MR. WILLIAMS: Across the board?
THE WITNESS: Right across the board.
BY MR. CARHART:
Q. When Mr. Dixon gave you the first polygraph
examination, did he indicate to you he thought you were
being untruthful in any of your answers?
A. Say that again, sir, if you don't mind?
Q. When Mr. Dixon gave you the first polygraph
examination that he administered to you, did he tell you
that he thought you were being untruthful as to any of the
questions you were asked?
A. The results of the polygraph were never indicated
to me by Mr.
Dixon on or at any time during the course of his techniques.
You know, he indicated to me anything with regard to your
question.
Q. How about after the test was concluded? Did
he advise you that he thought you had given deceptive
answers to any of the questions that you were asked
-------------------------------
PAGE 66
during the exam?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Did anyone else relate to you that Mr. Dixon was of
the opinion that you had given deceptive answers to any of
the questions asked during the firs polygraph examination
that Dixon administered?
A. Not until he made his report.
Q. Then, did someone tell you that Dixon believed you
to be untruthful in some of your answers?
A. That Dixon's reports -- what I was told, it was his
conclusions of the polygraph?
Q. Right. When you received that report of the
contents of that report, was there a statement or an
indication by Mr. Dixon that he found you to be untruthful
as to some of the questions asked of you?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. No one has ever told you that Mr. Dixon found you
to be untruthful in any area?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Who did you speak with regarding Mr. Dixon's
report?
A. It's been common conversation among Rina, D.C.
Diaz, Raul Puig, and whatever law enforcement people has
been surrounding me in this kind of
a situation.
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PAGE 67
Q. None of those persons told you that Dixon found you
to be untruthful in some of your responses?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. How about the second exam you were given?
Were you told that any of yours answers there were deceptive
in the opinion of Mr. Dixon?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Did Mr. Dixon tell you he found yours answers or
any of yours answers to be deceptive in the second exam he
administered to you?
A. He never discussed with me the results.
Q. While Mr. Dixon was administering the exam to you,
he never related to you his opinions as to whether or not
you were telling the truth?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Dixon record the exam; that is, his
questions asked of
you and the answers given on a tape recorder?
A. Of course. Yes.
Q. Did he record the interview you had with him before
you administered the exam?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, did you see a tape recorder?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. At some point, he turned on the tape
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PAGE 68
recorder; is that correct?
A. To change the cassettes and things like that.
Q. You know for at least a portion of the examination,
you were recorded?
A. I do believe that throughout the whole examination,
I was being recorded.
Q. Did that include the interview prior to the actual
administration of the exam?
A. I will assume, yes.
Q. Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to
those recordings?
A. Yes, I had.
Q. When is the last time?
A. Let me finish.
Q. Sure.
A. Yes, I had the opportunity, but I didn't do it.
Q. Before Mr. Dixon administered the examination to
you, let's say, in December of 1980 --
A. Whatever it was.
Q. Right, pertaining to the Quesada or Ortega matters,
had you ever been asked by any other agency, by any agency,
to take a polygraph exam?
A. Prior to --
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PAGE 69
Q. Mr. Dixon administering one to you?
A. A request, official request?
Q. Or informal?
A. Or informal, yes, there was a time when the developing of
this information that I was told than certain Mr. Richey
would like to polygraph me with regard to the upcoming
information.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Raul Diaz an Rina Cohan.
Q. Do you recall the date of that first request?
A. It was a week before -- actually, I met with Ms.
Cohan at the Holiday Inn.
Q. Did you agree to take the polygraph exam the firs
time you were requested to take one?
A.. Well, I agree to take it, but I did not agree with the
local polygraph people.
That was basically my disagreement is that I didn't want any
of the locals to be part of that examination, and I also
made a remark about why they never polygraph, you know, some
other witness. In my case, that they were never
polygraphed before, given the information, and I was told
that the guidelines
now apply that anyone giving up any kind of information will
have to be polygraphed.
-------------------------------
PAGE 70
Q. So I understand you correctly, are you saying that,
initially,
when requested by the State Attorney's Office through Raul
Diaz, you refused
to submit to a polygraph examination?
A. No, sir, that is not true. That is incorrect.
Q. All right.
A. What I refused was to be polygraphed, as I said
before, and it's in the record, to be polygraphed by the
local people.
Q. While you were refusing to be polygraphed by the
local people and making those observations about other
persons having been witnesses without being polygraphed, did
you agree that you would submit to a polygraph examination?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. If the operator was the proper person?
A. Yes.
Q. So, you never actually refused to submit to a
polygraph examination?
A. No, no, no. Never.
Q. It was only the terms and conditions that you had
some disagreement about?
A. No, I never -- the only terms that I said it was an
outsider from the local polygraph community
-------------------------------
PAGE 71
down here, and I only make the remarks, as I mentioned it
before, that why they never did this to Fausto Villar?
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Carlos Quesada?
A. Of course.
Q. When did you first meet Mr. Quesada?
A. Mr. Quesada -- the first time?
MS. COHAN: Objection. Repetitious.
MR. WILLIAMS : No, we haven't done that.
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes we did.
MR. WILLIAMS: I don't recall that we have done it, but in
any event, it's absolutely harmless to ask it again to set
up the next line of questioning.
MS. COHAN: Go ahead and answer it.
THE WITNESS: Can I take a short break?
MS. COHAN: Sure. We can all take a short break.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken after which the
following proceedings were had:)
(The witness was sworn.)
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Mr. Morales, I need to ask you a few more questions
about some
of the things that have occurred
-------------------------------
PAGE 72
in the past several years to which you have been a party
before we get around to Mr. Quesada and Mr. Ortega at this
time.
Do you remember all of the suggestions I made to you this
morning concerning the way in which you might want to answer
questions -- to tell me if there I anything that confuses
you, and to tell--
A. I will in the course of your questioning.
Q. Have you thought of anything that was taken from
you in the way of testimony this morning which, upon
reflection, you know think you have been inaccurate?
A. No, because I have not reflected.
Q. Well, I specifically invite you, at the beginning
of every session, to take the opportunity to tell us I there
is anything that you have rethought at any time with regard
to which you want to make any corrections, and in default of
your doing that, we will just let the record stand in its
own condition.
How many times have you been arrested, please, sir?
A. Four times.
Q. Would you please tell me the date of each and the
place, sir, and then, we will get some more information abut
each one?
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PAGE 73
A. February 14th, 1969. August, I believe,
1973. April the 16th, 1978, and July 25th, 1979.
Q. All right, sir.
A. Can you tell me --
A. Excuse me, sir, Mr. Williams, besides the times
that I mentioned before when I was arrested by INS on that
return raid from Cuba in 1962 or 1963.
Q. Thank you, sir.
A. Which has already been reflected in the record.
Q. Can you tell me, please sir, by whom you were arrested in
February of 1968 and for what?
A. February?
Q. Of 1968.
A. City of Miami Police Department.
Q. With what were you charged, please, sir?
A. Placing an explosive device, a bombing charge.
Q. By whom were you arrested in 1973, and for what?
A. City of Miami Police Department.
Q. With what were you charged?
A. First degree murder.
Q. By whom were you arrested in April of 1978?
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PAGE 74
A. City of Miami Police Department.
Q. With what were you charged, please, sir?
A. Possession of marijuana.
Q. By whom in 1979, please sir?
A. City of Miami Police Department.
Q. With what were you charged?
A. Carrying a concealed firearm, weapon, or whatever.
Q. Which?
A. CCF, I believe, or CCW.
Q. Tell me, please, sir, in 1968, who was the officer,
or who were the officers who arrested you?
A. Sergeant McCracken
Q. That was Gene McCracken?
A. At the time, he was sergeant. Eugene, I
believe, Eugene McCracken.
Q. In 1973, who was the arresting officer?
A. Actually, it was Gene McCracken again because I was
at his office again at this time.
Q. Who was the lead investigator in that case, the
homicide case?
A. At the end, it was this fellow Martinez.
Q. Walter Martinez.
A. Walter, uh, huh, that is right.
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PAGE 75
Q. Who was the arresting officer in April of 1978?
A. Well, I was arrested by over a dozen P.S.D. Uniform
guys.
Q. Who was the lead investigator.
A. In that case?
Q. Yes.
A. Sergeant Raul Martinez, and Customs Agent Edward
Mederos.
Q. In 1979, please sir?
A. Officer by the last time, Uniform officer by the
name of Parra, P-a-r-r-a.
Q. From the City of Miami, you said?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the factual basis of the 1968 bomb
charge? What factually was the accusation made
against you?
A. A bombing charge as far as I am concerned.
Q. Yes, sir.
Were you charged with having placed an explosive device
someplace?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you charged with having placed the
device?
A. One of those little places that started
-------------------------------
PAGE 76
doing trade with the enemy, with Cuba, with the Cuban
government.
Q. Which one?
A. Located at West Flagler Street and 35th Avenue, I
believe. It was either between 35th and 34th -- around
that area there.
Q. Do you remember the name of the establishment?
A. Has stayed out of my memory.
Q. Do you remember the name of the owner or owners of
the establishment who obviously were the target of the bomb;
weren't they? I mean, they were the ones who were trading?
A. You are wrong in your assumption. You are
putting words in my mouth.
Q. Okay. I don't want to put anything in your
mouth, Ricky.
A. Yes, you are, because they were not the
targets. I mean,
the target was the office, the space -- you know, the
building, or whatever
it was.
Q. The bomb was intended to interfere with the
business of humans, I take it, who were trading with Cuba;
is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were those humans -- that's what I want
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PAGE 77
to know?
A. I don't know who were those humans.
Q. Oh, you don't know who the people were who were
operating the business?
A. No.
Q. Did you do that on your own, or were you acting
kind of for hire in that capacity?
MS. COHAN: Objection. He has not testified that he
committed any placement.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, we are getting to it, so just leave the
witness alone until he has a problem. He does not need
to be coached.
MS. COHAN: Mr. Williams, I will state lawful objections as I
see fit.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will tell you what. I will agree with
you, Ms. Cohan, that all objections go to relevance and
competence and form are reserved; all right? That way,
none of us has to interject so as to taint the witness'
ability to recall or testify.
MS. COHAN: Objection. Assuming facts not in evidence.
MR. WILLIAMS: Are you rejecting my stipulation?
MS. COHAN: You may answer.
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PAGE 78
MR. WILLIAMS: I didn't hear you. Are you rejecting my
stipulation?
MS. COHAN: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: Okay.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. The question is, were you acting on your own, or
were you acting kind of on a mercenary or for hire basis
there?
MS. COHAN: Objection. Assuming facts not in evidence.
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, I know. You have already stated
your objection, and it's exactly the same question.
Now, if we leave the witness alone, you don't have to look
back and forth.
THE WITNESS: You want me blindfold? That would be --
MR. WILLIAMS: I would rather that you not look anyplace.
THE WITNESS: Then, I will be blindfold. I will make it
easy for everybody. If I cannot do anyplace, I will
not looking for advice. I am just wandering my eyes
because I don't understand a thing about what you are
saying, or she
is saying about legal procedures.
MR. WILLIAMS: And you're not supposed to.
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PAGE 79
We are just doing lawyer talk back and forth.
THE WITNESS: Let me look at her face, and her face, and Mr.
Carhart's face.
MR. CARHART: It's very benign.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you have the question, Mr. Morales?
A. You are the one asking the question.
Q. Do you understand what the question is?
A. Yes.
Q. May I have the answer, please, sir?
A. To what because she's objecting, and you are
bickering with her, and at this point, I don't know exactly
what is going on.
Q. Here's the question, Mr. Morales --
A. Okay.
Q. Was the placing of the bomb something that was done
as the result of your own feelings or your own
determination, or was it something that you
did because somebody else asked or paid you to do it?
A. No, it was my feelings and my convictions against
whoever is trading with the enemy.
Q. What kind of a bomb was it?
A. Mr. Williams, let me tell you something.
Q. How about answering my question?
A. That is the way I am going to answer it to
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PAGE 80
you.
Q. Okay. All right.
A. That is the way I am going to answer it to you.
That night, I placed an envelope with Composition 4 and a
time delay pencil with a J-1 type blasting cap.
Right after I did that , some other group, because at the
time there were so many groups bombing the hell out of those
places that were trading with the enemy, show up there and
place a stick of dynamite, because I threw the envelope
through the mail slot of the building. You know, it
was a ground
level building, and it happens once in a million, but it
happened to me,
and then there comes this guy put a bomb, you know, blew the
main entrance
of the place, ripped apart the envelope.
The C4 was spread all over the place, and the pencil and the
black cap was somewhere laying around there.
The envelope was somewhere laying around there.
Then, the police arrived there, and while they were inside
the place, of course, the time pencil ignited, the blasting
cap, the J-1 and Sergeant
-------------------------------
PAGE 81
Leesburg from City of Miami Police Department got some
schrapnel [SHRAPNEL]; okay, so actually it was not my device
that was the one that blew that place.
Q. Life is a bitch; isn't it, Ricky?
A. Life is bitchy.
Q. All you wanted to is go out and put a bomb down
someplace, and
here somebody has to come down behind you and mess up the
whole place?
A. Mess up the whole thing.
Q. They have no respect.
A. No respect at all for the professionals.
Q. Well, did you ever find out who it was that came it
and bombed
your bomb?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Who was it?
A. Omar Soto.
Q. Was he somebody whom you knew at that time also to
be engaged in the bombing business?
A. No, I found out about him when I started looking
for the other
bomber.
Q. Now, was that the first explosive device or bomb or
whatever you want to call it that you had ever placed
somewhere for purposes of blowing something or somebody up?
A. Of course not.
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PAGE 82
Q. Well, I've heard all the stories, Ricky, but I
can't assume any of that, so I have to have you tell me
about it. You know, a chance to meet a living legend,
you know, so I am going to ask you to tell me.
Prior to 1968, where else had you placed an explosive
device?
Let me ask you this, first, Ricky, just you know, what the
lawyers call
a technicality.
When you placed the explosive device in the place at Flagler
and 34th or 35th back in 1968, you knew at the time that you
were violating one of the laws of the State of Florida;
didn't you?
A. That's a matter of semantics.
Q. Did you know that you were committing an illegal
act, Ricky?
A. That's a matter of semantics.
Q. Well, given our need to utilize the semantics that
are normally employed in the day to day lives of normal
humans, if you would indulge us by using those same
semantics, didn't you know at the time that you did that you
were doing an act that the law prohibited?
A. That's another matter of semantics.
Q. Well, just do the best you can.
A. Douglas, I was not committing a crime.
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PAGE 83
Q. Well, let's do it this way: I invited you to state
to me any ideological or philosphical [PHILOSOPHICAL]
feeling that you have about it because I'm happy to hear
that all the time, but first, I'd like you to tell me
whether you harbored an awareness at the time that you did
the act that you were violating
either one of the laws of the State of Florida or one of the
laws of the
United States or both? Did you know it?
A. Of course.
Q. Now, if you want behind that, to make some
philosphical [PHILOSOPHICAL] or ideological expression to
me, Mr. Morales, I invite you to, because that is an
education for me, too.
A. You won't get it yet.
Q. I am trying , Ricky.
A. You will, you will eventually.
Q. I am going to be taught something?
A. Oh, yes, definitely. I promise you. I
swear my heart.
Q. I am a very quick study, Ricky.
A. I am going to please you.
Q. I have a very quick step. Sometimes, I
surpass the master right on the spot; okay?
Let's go back prior to 1969, and have you tell me the
different occasions before that on which
-------------------------------
PAGE 84
you placed some bomb or explosive device?
A. Well, Mr. Williams, I went to a full demolition
course where hey did a lot of work on that, and that's where
I learned my expertise.
Q. When did you have that course, please?
A. 1963, 1964, I believe.
Q. Was that the first, if you will pardon the
expression, contact
that you had with demolitions, or had you kind of dabbled in
it as an amateur before then?
A. No, amateurs usually make mistakes, and you are
only allowed one mistake in demolition.
Q. Just exactly so.
A. So, I was introduced to the wonderful world of C4
by the means
of my demolition training.
Q. From whom did you receive that training, please,
sir?
A. The Central Intelligence Agency.
Q. In this country or outside of the United States?
A. To the best of my knowledge, it was in this
country.
Q. Now --
A. I don't see anything funny about it.
Q. Now, I need to know --
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PAGE 85
A. You don't know like the C.I.A.?
Q. It has provided me with some of the most
entertaining moments of my life.
A. Okay, because I don't like people, you know, making
jokes about them.
Q. I need to know this, Mr. Morales: The way in which
you answered that last question suggests that you don't
possess absolute certainty as to
where this demolitions course was given you. Is that
because your awareness
was impeded in some way, or is it because the C.I.A. took
steps to try and
keep you and the others from knowing where you were?
A. That is right, that is correct, to the last part of
your question.
Q. The C.I.A. tried to keep you from knowing where you
were?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Let me guess. You were blindfolded and put in
an airplane?
A. No, actually the airplane was the one that was
blindfolded.
Q. You were put in an airplane with the windows
blocked out?
A. That is correct.
Q. And flown someplace?
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PAGE 86
A. An airplane someplace.
Q. And you were airborne long enough so that you could
be conceivably in another country?
A. Or we could have been circling around Miami, right,
and circle
around into the wild blue yonder, or whatever, you know.
Q. Well, now, let me guess.
When the airplane landed, was the pilot killed, or was his
tongue cut out, so he couldn't tell anybody where he had
taken you?
A. No, we were separated from them. We never saw
the pilots, and the pilots never saw us.
By this time, you should be aware of that. If you want
to waste a
lot of paper there, you know, we can keep going on, but
that's the only answer I can give you.
Q. Is that a standard intelligence technique?
A. Yes, that's part of the compartmentalization part.
Q. How does the principle of compartmentalization --
A. There are only two kinds of compartmentalization --
horizontal
and vertical.
Q. Please explain them to me?
A. It's a need to know basis, so I didn't
-------------------------------
PAGE 87
have the need to know who the pilots were or the pilots'
need to know who I was.
Q. If I understand you correctly, Ricky, what you are
telling me is that the theory of compartmentalization is
that different people involved in the same operations or
series of acts who have different functions to play
are kept separately and apart from each other, so that no
one person knows
what any of the others is doing; is that essentially it?
A. Essentially. It is correct.
Q. Is that a technique that you have utilized over the
years during your career as an Intelligence agent or
operative?
A. It is part of daily life. You know, it's part
of the job.
Q. So, for example, was that a technique that you
applied when you were DISIP in Venezuela?
A. It goes along with the profession.
Q. Ricky, I need a yes or no, and then, a comment?
A. Yes.
Q. See, you and I know, as we sit here and talk by
facial expressions what one another means, but two weeks
from now, when I go to read this deposition, the record is
just going to have black and
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PAGE 88
white words. That's why we have to clarify it.
A. Yes, that is terrible, Douglas. I understand.
I am going to try to help you out on that because that's
terrible. Yes, of course. The cold of black and
white is terrible.
Q. So, you were trained by the C.I.A. at the very
least someplace
on the surface of the earth?
A. That is right.
Q. Where there wasn't snow?
A. Yes and no.
Q. Okay. It doesn't matter.
A. For a time, there was snow and cold, and then,
there was warm.
Q. How long this the course last?
A. What course?
Q. The demolition course that you took?
A. Demolition lasted two separate weeks.
Q. I gather, then, that the inference to be drawn from
what you just said is that you were receiving your
demolitions training along with other basic C.I.A. training;
is that correct?
A. Not along.
Q. As part of ?
A. As part of.
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PAGE 89
Q. So that you weren't taken away just specifically
for the purpose of demolitions training, but for all of the
training that the C.I.A. was giving
its agents, then?
A. That is correct.
Q. As long as we're here, Ricky, without going into
the kind of details that would be regarded as sensitive or
privileged or confidential or anything like that, tell me
what the rest of your C.I.A. training was in general terms?
A. It covered, Williams, everything. I received
the best training available.
Q. Break it down for me, as neatly as you can, Ricky,
and we don't have to spend a lot of time on it.
A. Mapping, patrol, raids, jump school, communications
and demolitions, counter insurgency, insurgency, clandestine
movement, inclandestine movement, covert actions, survival.
Q. Self-defense?
A. Self-defense.
Q. Any psychology taught?
A. Weapons, psychological warfare.
Q. Can you think of anything else?
A. There must have been a lot more.
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PAGE 90
Q. How long did the training last, Ricky?
A. For me and my team?
Q. Yes.
A. It lasted ten months.
Q. Now, we talked a while ago about the different
between a contract agent and a regular -- what was the term
you used -- the other kind of agent?
A. Staff.
Q. A staff agent.
I assume the training that you got was the highest level of
training that the C.I.A. was giving regardless of what one
called their employees at that time; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Is it also fair to assume that as far as you can
tell and based upon what you have been able to learn over
the rest of your career in intelligence work, that you were
getting the best that was available to be given at the time?
A. That is what they told me.
Q. Do you have any reason to disbelieve it looking
back?
A. Nope.
Q. I mean, techniques may have changed, but still, at
the time, it was the best there was?
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PAGE 91
That is right.
Q. And you completed it?
A. A fine course.
Q. After that, when did you perform your first actual
piece of demolitions work? When did you first blow
something up or plant a bomb or anything like that?
A. After the training?
Q. Yes.
A. In the Congo.
Q. As part of its training back then, was the C.I.A.
giving different people specialized or concentrated training
in some areas to the exclusion of others like, for example,
would one person be picked out to get the regular
demolitions training, and then, go on to be given more
specialized training to become even more expert as a
specialist in demolitions, and another one on orthography
and another one or cartography? Was that being
done.
A. I heard o things along those lines, but I took the
whole course. I never went into, you know, that kind
of piecemeal instruction.
Q. In other words, you were never singled out for any
more intensive instruction other than that was given during
the regular course?
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A. That was intensive.
Q. I understand that. I'm sure it was, but what
I want to know is whether you got any demolitions training
that went past what the general group of C.I.A.
trainees would get?
A. No, no. That was I.
There were people who got less, but what I got -- it was the
real McCoy.
Q. So, you went to the Congo, then, and you told us,
on Friday, that you went on a Mad Mike Hoare course?
A. Attack.
Q. Whey you were in the Congo, Ricky, on how many
different occasions, could you tell us now with some degree
of accuracy, did you either fabricate or put in place
explosive devices?
A. Douglas, to start with, a hand grenade is an
explosive device,
you know, and at night, I used to wake up everybody, you
know, with a couple of hand grenades, because that was
common practical jokes, so you have to understand that.
Q. Well, I agree with you that it beats the hell of an
alarm clock.
A. And since they were already fabricated in the form
that they, you know, whatever they were in
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PAGE 93
the crates, you know, to be used, and it's a question that I
--
Q. Well, let me make a distinction then between
munitions, on the
one hand, and demolitions material on the other; okay?
A. Well, munitions can be detonated, too, and then, it
becomes --
were you in the Service by any chance just to try to help
you out?
Were you in the Service?
Q. Listen. Assume that I have some working
familiarity with
it.
A. No, Service. I mean, did you serve your
country?
Q. Assume that I have some working knowledge of it.
A. Well, then, I have to reverse to previous
situation.
MS. COHAN: I wasn't in the Service. Start from the
beginning.
THE WITNESS: Because I cannot assume, you know. I am
not in an assuming position.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Let's me assume, then, that neither I nor the
prosecutor was and start from point 1.
A. Scratch?
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PAGE 94
Q. Scratch.
A. So, munitions, you know, ammo, it can be used also
as an explosive device.
Q. Well, let's define "munitions"?
A. That's ordnance.
Q. That's ordinance without the "I" with
the understanding than we are talking about something that
is made to be used and is used in weapons as opposed to
expressly for the purpose of demolition; all right?
Now, apart from the use of munitions in the Congo, did you
also have to fabricate and make use of demolition material
like C4, or plastic explosive, or with time delay fuses, and
that kind of stuff? Did you do than as well?
A. It was there. It was part of the supply.
Q. So, then, you used both ammunition or ordnance, on
the one hand, and demolitions material on the other; is that
correct?
A. Well, all depends if I was fighting with a machine
gun, you know, I cannot throw a hand grenade at the same
time.
Q. But, you used them both when you were in the Congo?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. On how many occasions, if at all while you
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PAGE 95
were in the Congo, did you either detonate or put into place
for detonation some demolitions material as opposed to
shooting off a round of something than would be classified
as ordnance?
A. On several occasions, numerous occasions, on
thousands of occasions, every time that there was a fire
fight or a practical joke going on.
Q. Did you actually use and detonate demolitions
material in the Congo?
A. Yes.
Q. On more than a dozen occasions?
A. Yes.
Q. On more than a dozen occasions?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they antipersonal devices as well as devices
intended to destroy property or buildings or clear land or
something else?
A. Of course.
Q. On how many occasions would you say you used or
assisted in the use of any personal explosive devices?
A. First of all, there is what you characterize what
antipersonal
device is?
Q. How do you understand the term? What does the
term mean -- that's what I should ask you?
A. Well, that could apply to land mines, that could
apply to booby traps, that could apply to
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PAGE 96
hand grenades.
Q. All right. Something that is intended to kill
or injure a human as opposed to blow up a building; okay?
A. I am going to correct my answer according to the
words that you are trying to put in my mouth that it was for
the purpose of inflicting casualties to the enemy.
Q. I understand that.
A. You understand that.
A. You understand? Right.
Q. That's the synonym or the euphemism that you showed
on Friday?
A. No, this is a military terminology.
Q. Well --
A. Of all the armies in all the world. That's
what war is all about.
MR. WILLIAMS: Prosecutor, do you understand that answer to
contemplate the use of synonym or euphemism that the witness
chose on Friday?
MS. COHAN: Yes.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Can you tell me on how many occasions you did make
use of demolitions or explosives for antipersonal purposes?
A. I threw about a whole case of hand grenades
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PAGE 97
on one occasion.
Q. How many is that?
A. Twenty-four.
Q. I assume, certainly, that there were more occasions
than one on which you threw hand grenades?
A. And many occasions that I couldn't even recall, you
know, under the pressure.
Q. Then, it would just be accurate to say that during
the period of time that you were in the Belgium Congo, that
you made extensive use of demolitions for antipersonal
purposes?
A. No, it is incorrect.
Q. What would be correct?
A. Extensive use of an automatic rifle.
Q. Did you also make extensive use of explosives for
antipersonal
purposes while you were in the Belgium Congo?
Remember, if you can,
yes or no, and then, explain?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever perceive as a matter of fact, at least
within reasonable limits and a reasonable act, to form such
perception that your use of any antipersonal explosives had
been successful, as you would say, inflicting casualties,
and as I would say, killing somebody? Did you ever
perceive that that had
-------------------------------
PAGE 98
also been accomplished?
A. I wasn't in the business.
Q. Without regard to how many there were?
A. I don't know.
Q. I'm not asking you how many. I'm asking you
whether --
A. I don't know. If you throw a hand grenade,
you don't know what's going on on the other side. You
move out from your position, because when a hand grenade
goes off from your side, there goes a clink of the spoon.
Then, you are giving up your position. Then, you roll
back -- come on, Douglas. What kind of question is
that?
Q. Do I understand you to be telling me, then, Mr.
Morales, that for so long as you were in the Belgium Congo
in the 1960's, you have no idea whether
you inflicted even the first casualty on a human being as a
result of your
use of explosives? You don't know.
A. Oh, I do know.
Q. Did you?
A. About casualties?
Q. Yes, did you inflict casualties?
A. Oh, I saw a lot of people dead on both
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PAGE 99
sides.
Q. Under circumstances that would cause you to feel
that some of the people whom you regarded as your enemy died
as a result of your use of explosives or demolitions?
A. I never run ballistics on them.
Q. I said, your demolitions or explosives?
A. I don't know. I never ran ballistics on them.
What if there are 150 guys doing the same thing you are
doing? Who is going to get the credit?
Q. Mr. Morales, if you went to a specified location
and planted an explosive device and left the area and
detonated it or allowed it to detonate, depending upon what
it was, and then, you returned to the area and saw bodies
lying around, would you reasonably assume that your
explosion had been responsible for the results that you saw?
A. But, that was not the case.
Q. I am asking you, would you?
A. Of course.
Q. Did that ever happen during the entire period of
time that you
were in the Belgium Congo?
A. Well, I never placed it myself. I mean, with
regard to booby traps and land mines and things.
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PAGE 100
Q. Any kind of demolition?
A. The whole team goes there. Everybody does his
little job.
If somebody gets hurt or some casualty, I will inflict it to
the enemy.
If you want a piece of an arm for you, or you want the head
of the guy for you, or the feet -- whatever you split it.
Q. However you chose to segment it or apportion
responsibility, that is fine with me. I don't suppose
it makes much difference.
A. The guy who dropped the bomb, he is in Russia, or
the guy who built the bomb back there in the Alamo --
wherever they were. Come on, Douglas.
Q. Here's my question to you, Ricky: For as long as
you were in the Belgium Congo, did you ever become aware
that your use of demolitions or explosives
or your participation in the preparation of demolitions and
explosives resulted
in the deaths or the casualties, or whatever you want to
call them, of people
against whom you were fighting? Did you ever become
aware of that,
or did you serve all of you time in the Congo without
knowing whether you
ever killed the first person with any kind of explosive?
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PAGE 101
A. Actually, you can't tell from explosives because if
you fire a
mortar; all right, you don't know if there are more mortars
going on at the
same time. You don't know if the one that you dropped
-- what about
if you are holding the tube? Then, who is responsible
-- the guy who
dropped the shell, or the one who holds the tube?
In my opinion, the one who is responsible is the one who
done run around the place and gets hit.
Q. Then, your testimony is that, as you sit here now,
you don't know whether, during the entire period of time you
were in the Belgium Congo working for or with the C.I.A.
during the 60's, you were responsible for the first death or
casualty of anybody through the use of explosives? You
don't know that?
A. Explosives -- it's impossible, Douglas.
Q. You don't know it?
A. It is impossible. It is quite impossible to
determine it.
There were a lot of them, but I cannot determine, you know,
if they were mine or the guy next to me or themself or
somebody else.
We were not the only ones there. I was not the only
one there.
Q. It was clearly your effort and your intention
-------------------------------
PAGE 102
to ha ve the demolitions that you placed or fabricated or
threw or whatever result in death or casualty, wasn't it
your intention?
A. Inflicting casualties to the enemy and survival.
Q. Would you give me a yes or no, please, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. So that if your particular explosive had the effect
that was desired and intended, it would be something that
you specifically intended to do; correct?
A. Say that again?
Q. If a particular explosive device that you placed or
that you fabricated did what it was supposed to do, that
would be something that you had intended that it do; isn't
that correct?
A. Yes, because you don't only use demolition to
destroy human life or beings. You use it to demolish a
bridge or to cut down a highway, you know, railroads lines
and airlines, and things like that; right?
Q. How long were you in the Congo, by the way?
A. Over six months.
That's how far the whole war lasted.
We were - we sped up the end. It had last
-------------------------------
PAGE 103
a little longer.
Q. Have you ever now that you mention it, either
fabricated or assisted in the fabrication of an explosive or
placed or assisted in the placement of an explosive that
blew up an airliner? Have you ever done that?
A. Say that again?
Q. Have you ever --
A. I'm going o cut it short for you. Yes.
Q. Oh how many different occasions?
A. One.
Q. When and where?
A. Barbados.
Q. When, please, sir?
A. 1976.
Let me correct myself, so I won't have to do it tomorrow.
The craft involved was a communist Air Force plane from the
Republic of
Cuba.
Q. How many people were on board?
A. There were, including North Korean spies, Gwyenas,
Cadres, DGI
personnel, and Air Force officers of the Cuban Air Force,
and assorted members
of the Cuban Communist Party.
There is a big discrepancy, which I believe
-------------------------------
PAGE 104
that the government of Cuba is the only one who can come up
with the exact figure.
Q. What is the best information you have?
A. According to the Press, which is, to the best of my
knowledge,
is wrong, 73.
Q. Did you place that explosive device on the
aircraft, or did you fabricate it?
A. No, I did not place it, and I did not fabricate it.
Q. What part did you have in that incident?
A. In that incident?
Q. Yes, what did you do?
A. Oh, I was part of the conspirators.
Q. What specific part did you play that resulted in
the blowing up of that airplane?
A. Oh, surveillance of the regular flights of that
Cuban Air Force plane, providing by a third party the
explosives.
Q. Is that to say that you made available the
explosives to the people who actually did the manual work
through a third person as intermediary?
A. Yes.
Q.
What was the part in that incident or
episode so far
as you know played by Dr. Bosch?
A. None whatsoever.
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PAGE 105
You have heard that he has been implicated in it or accused
of it; haven't you?
A. Oh, in fact, I arrested him.
Q. Is it your testimony -- did you arrest him for that
episode?
A. I was ordered to arrest Dr. Orlando Bosch and
produce him to my immediate superior, Deputy Dr. Rafael
Rivas Vasquez.
Q. This is then while you were with DISIP?
A. That was at the time that I was commissar in charge
of Division 54.
Q. So, did you actually arrest Dr. Bosch and deliver
him over?
A. I went out of the headquarters along with one of my
inspectors
to the location that was provided to me by my immediate
superior, and I went into the house, and since Orlando Bosch
has been already informed that I was
on my way down there to pick him up, he was waiting for me,
and after having
lunch, at that house, I proceeded to return Dr. Orlando
Bosch to the main
building of the DISIP in Caracas.
Q. Is it your testimony, as you sit here now, Mr.
Morales, that to your knowledge, regardless of the source of
your knowledge, wherever it came from, Orlando Bosch had no
connection either directly or
-------------------------------
PAGE 106
indirectly with the demolition of that airplane?
A. He has no guilty whatsoever.
Q. Well, let's not confuse ourselves with evaluate
concepts.
A. Let's not confuse myself.
Q. Let's not get involved -- I'm asking you about the
realities of it?
A. He has nothing to do with it all.
Q. At the time that you furnished the explosives, did
you know that they were going to be used to sabotage or blow
up that airplane?
A. Not at the beginning, and the source of explosive,
Mr. Williams, was a result of the search that was executed
by agents of my division in a
house that suspected of being used by foreign intelligence
enemies, and there
was a lot of material that was seized there, and there was
some explosives that they were found there, which were, of
course, turned over to the Explosives end and Disposal
Division of the DISIP, and that's where -- that's from
where, later on, the explosives found their way into this
Cuban Air Force plane.
Q. Were you responsible either directly or indirectly
for the explosives finding their way eventually into the
airplane?
-------------------------------
PAGE 107
A. I share.
Q. Did you know at the time that you --
A. I share the responsibility.
Q. I understand.
Did you know at the time that you took whatever steps were
necessary in
order for the explosives to be put on their path that
eventually wound up
inside the airplane?
A. Of course.
Q. Did you know that they were going to be used to
explode the airplane?
A. Of course.
Q. Dr. Bosch was specifically charged with either
perpetrating that incident, himself, or having assisted in
putting it together; wasn't he? Wasn't he charged with
that in Venezuela?
A. He is still in jail.
Q. My question to you, sir, is whether he was charged
with responsibility for that incident?
A. That is why he is still in jail.
Q. May I take that as a yes?
MS. COHAN: Yes.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Did you assist in the prosecution, in any way?
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PAGE 108
A. Nope.
Q. Did you provide the Venezuelan government with any
evidence that was used against him?
A. No.
Q. Have you, at any time, attempted to inform any
authorities of your knowledge or believe, whatever it is,
that Dr. Bosch had no part in the incident?
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. To the media and to his attorney.
Q. How recently?
A. Last year. December and January.
Q. What happened to those efforts on your part, Ricky,
to let them know that Bosch was innocent?
A. I have no knowledge, whatsoever, of the situation
over there after.
Q. But, he still is in jail?
A. Let me finish, Douglas.
Q. I'm sorry, Ricky.
A. I'm sorry, Douglas, but let me finish. I am
not finished
yet.
Q. Please go ahead.
A. I have no knowledge, whatsoever, of what has become
of my disclosures to the media there, and my disclosures to
Orlando Bosch's attorney, but as far
-------------------------------
PAGE 109
as I know, for all I know in this world, which is very
uncertain, the future of -- he is still in San Carlos
Military Prison in Caracas.
He might have escaped yesterday, you know. He might
have passed away at the same time that we are talking now.
You don't know. That happens to living people.
Q. At the time that you told Dr. Bosch's lawyer and
the media of his innocence, did you also, in effect, accept
responsibility or confess involving to the extend that you
had it in that episode?
A. Don't put the word confess. I didn't confess.
I confess to a priest; okay?
Q. You know what I am saying, though.
Did you disclose your involvement and say, "I know he wasn't
involved in it because I was, and he wasn't there"?
A. Well, I disclosed the conspiracy. I disclosed
the actual, you know, operation, and I disclosed the facts
of the coverup.
Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Were you finished?
A. Go ahead.
Q. Did you disclose publicly your involvement in the
episode?
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PAGE 110
A. Watch my face.
Q. Is that a yes, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Why wasn't Dr. Bosch let out of jail; do you know?
A. That answer -- that has to be referred to the
Venezuelans.
(Off the record.)
THE WITNESS: Let me get one thing straight in my mind is
that supposedly every word that I speak here is being taken
down by the court reporter; right?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Everything that has pertinence to the case, yes.
A. Okay. So, you know, I have detected that the
court reporter, on the cases that I have been talking or
referring to incidents that has been
put up by counsel, you know, have not been taken down by
her.
Q. No, that is not correct.
A. That is correct, and I don't want to get into the
procedure to
be keeping an eye on her.
Q. You don't have to worry about that.
A. Oh, yes, I do.
Q. Now, let's make sure that the record is
-------------------------------
PAGE 111
clear.
Number one, if you see the court reporter with her hands not
moving at a particular time --
A. And I'm not talking, and she is not moving her
hands, that means than she is not talking down whatever I am
saying?
Q. No, not at all, but I have seen her moving all the
time that you talk.
Now, you made your statement, and I am no inviting you to
argue with me. The record speaks for itself,
obviously.
MS. COHAN: When it does speak.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When you see the court reporter's hands not moving
from time to time, it's because of her technique and her
timing. I assure you that if the prosecutor ever
thought the testimony of yours were being omitted from
recordation, and therefore, transcription, the prosecutor
would make it known,
and do whatever she thought was appropriate about it in
matters that are
known to us as lawyers.
A. What do I care is that every time that I talk, I
want to see her hands.
Q. Well, Mr. Morales --
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PAGE 112
A. Banging that machine.
Q. Well, I really don't much care what you want.
She is going to take the deposition.
A. But, I do care. I do care. I don't care if you
don't care, but
I do care.
Q. She is going to take the deposition in the fashion
that she sees fit, and if you think that anything that you
have said so far has been omitted from the deposition, then,
you go right now with prosecutor, so that the prosecutor
can come back and tell us, on the record, the particular
areas that you feel
some testimony of yours has been omitted, and if the
prosecutor makes an
appropriate objection, then, we will go down before the
Judge right now and
have the tapes examined to determine whether they are
accurate or not.
Mr. Carhart and Mr. Arias and Mr. Quesada and I are going to
leave the room now until you tell us, Ms. Cohan, you are
ready for us to resume, so Mr. Morales
can tell us all the particulars in which you think the court
reporter has
omitted the reporting of any of Mr. Morales' testimony.
MS. COHAN: I would indicate prior to your leaving, that
there have been
occasions throughout the
-------------------------------
PAGE 113
past two and a half days when counsel and Mr. Morales have
engaged in bickering during which the court
reporter was not taking down the bickering. I do not
consider those matters evidentiary, and those are the only
matters that I know of that have not been transcribed.
MR. WILLIAMS: All right, but I don't want this deposition to
go forward
with there being any doubt appearing of record as to the
accuracy of the
tapes that are being made, and therefore, the transcripts
that they will
eventually produce, so I invite the witness, once again, to
confer with you
out of our hearing, so that when we resume this deposition
in five minutes,
it appears unequivocally that there have been no omissions
of any testimony
at all to eliminate the specter of that, and if you are of
the feeling that
any testimonial statements have been eliminated, Ms. Cohan,
then put of record
what you think to have been eliminated.
MR. CARHART: She has already made her statement as to her
position, and
if Mr. Morales has an objection to the procedure, let him
state his objection.
Ms. Cohan is a competent lawyer. She is representing
the State. If something needs correcting,
-------------------------------
PAGE 114
I am sure she can do it.
THE WITNESS: I second Mr. Carhart.
MR. CARHART: So, let's go forward.
This is my time, and it's valuable, so let's go forward.
THE WITNESS: Let's go forward.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you want the opportunity, Mr. Morales, to confer
privately with the prosecutor?
A. I already agreed with Mr. Carhart.
Q. I take that as a no, then.
Now, Ms. Court Reporter, where were we?
(Whereupon, the last question and answer were read into the
record.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Do you know for a fact, Mr. Morales, that the
information that
you attempted to impart concerning Dr. Bosch's
noninvolvement in that episode was, in fact, received by
people in authority in Venezuela?
A. As far as I am concerned, it was given to Dr.
Bosch's attorney, and it was disseminated to the whole
Venezuelan citizens through the media.
Q. Well, then, what, to your knowledge, is or could be
the reason
or reasons for his still being
-------------------------------
PAGE 115
incarcerated for a crime that you say he didn't commit?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you believe that you are presently a person who
does not have credibility with the Venezuelan governmental
establishment?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you have that feeling?
A. No.
Q. Do you feel that your stature in their eyes is such
that they would be inclined to believe anything that you
tell them?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any other possible explanation that you
can venture, then, for the reason that apparently, even
though you have proclaimed Dr. Bosch's innocence, he is
still being held prisoner for a crime that you say he didn't
commit?
A. To start with , Mr. Williams, Dr. Bosch was
acquitted by a lower military court, and there is another
court on top of that lower military court
that will have to determine if the findings of the lower
court are going
to stand, because he is not under civilian indictment or
judicial assistance -- whatever you want to call it.
He is in the hands of the military.
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PAGE 116
There is a lower military court that has exonerated Orlando
Bosch of any responsibility with regard to the bombing of
the Cuban Air Force plane, and it's up to a superior
military tribunal to upheld, or whatever, you know.
Q. Reverse?
A. Reverse, you know, the decision of that lower
military court.
Q. Did you ever come to have knowledge of the
published passenger
manifest indicating the people who, according to the public
media, were passengers on that airplane?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you learn that there were on board
several women who ostensibly were traveling as spouses or
mates or partners to some of the men on board?
A. They fall in the category of assorted communist
party members.
Q. Give me a yes or no? Yes, you did, but --
A. That there were women aboard?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also learn, sir, that there were children
under the age of eighteen on board that
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PAGE 117
airplane?
A. I didn't know that there were any children on
board.
Q. You haven't learned that?
A. No, I haven't learned that.
Q. If, in fact, there were children under the age of
eighteen on board that airplane, would you still regard them
as being communist sympathizers under any circumstances?
A. I will consider them -- that is preposterous
because I have no
knowledge about that, but that is preposterous, but to
please you, Williams,
I will say that they will belong to the Youth Communist
Organization, and
in due time, they will become full-fledged communists.
Q. Not anymore.
A. Well, not anymore in their cases.
Q. After the Congo, but before the airline bombing in
1976, the airplane bombing in 1976, would you tell me of any
other incidents in which you have participated either
directly or indirectly in the use of demolitions?
A. Training. I have trained people.
Q. No, I am talking about the use of demolitions in an
offensive way or with the intent that
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PAGE 118
they have some real effect on people or things?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. You told me one. Please, sir, what are the others?
A. Rodriguez' Market. That was the couple of
communist , you know, that were running the market.
Q. When was that, please, sir?
A. I don't recall the dates, William.
Q. Well, give me, if you can, approximately?
A. I don't recall the dates on that now. You
know, it was in the 60's.
Q. Sometime in the 60's?
A. Sometime in the 60's.
Q. Where, please, sir?
A That market was located in Hialeah.
Q. What did you do with regard to the Rodriguez'
Market, Mr. Morales?
A. I assisted the bomber.
Q. In what way?
A. In the confection of the explosive device.
Q. I didn't hear the word that you used -- in the what
of the explosive device?
A. Confection, manufacture, put it together.
Q. Who was the bomber?
A. He is dead.
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Q. Who was he, please, sir?
A. Ramon Cubenas Conde.
Q. Say the last name, please?
A. Cubenas, C-u-b-e-n-a-s.
Q. What is the matronimic last name?
A. Conde, C-o-n-d-e.
Q. What kind of explosive was used?
A. Pentolite.
Q. Was anybody physically injured?
A. Nope.
Q. Just property destruction?
A. Yes.
Q. Subsequently to your return or departure from the
Congo, after
the Rodriguez' Market, what was the next incident of your
participation in
any way at all of any demolition or preparation of
explosives?
A. 1966. There were about five or six more bombings.
Q. Where, please, sir?
A. In the Miami area.
Q. What was the nature of your participation in them?
A. 1966, 1967. Some of them, I put the
explosives together,
and some of them were placed by me.
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There was a time when they started trading with the enemy,
and they became part of a hit list. Whoever was
trading with the Castro government was
being bombed.
It's part of, you know, Miami history.
Q. Can you remember any specific places that were
bombed in which
you had the participation that you just described?
A. Bacu -- something like that.
Q. B-a-c-u?
A. Something along those lines.
Q. What was that?
A. I believe that that was located in Coral Way.
Q. What kind of a place was it?
A. Well, you see, I'm wrong on that, because than
was 1968,
because the day that, you know, that my little job there in
Flagler was foiled,
you know, by a second group, that night, I believe that we
hit about four
different places, which don't even ask me the names of the
places, because
they are forgotten.
Q. But, they were all places where you placed or
detonated explosive devices?
A. Or drive and somebody will step out of the car, you
know, and place it. Usually, I was the one,
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PAGE 121
you know, stripping the -- the Ore Verde freighter.
I built up the bomb, which goes part of the --
Q. I'm sorry -- you did what to the bomb, sir?
A. I built it up, but I didn't place it. It was
somebody else. It was given to somebody else.
Q. To whom was it given?
A. Huh?
Q. To whom was it given?
A. Alanis was the last name of the kid who actually
jumped in the
water to attach.
Didn't go off, by the way.
Q. Who had him do it?
A. Huh?
Q. Who had him do it?
A. Huh?
Q. Who had him do it?
A. We, at that time, I belonged to an organization by
the name of
ESA, Ejercito Secreto Anticomunista.
We burned down the FORDC.
Q. What is that?
A. That was a place on 1st Street between 9th and 8th
Avenue that
was used by local Castro symphatizers to gather, and that
place became a
nuisance, so it was burned down to the ground.
Q. Now, when you use the word, the term, "we," are you
talking about the other members of this group,
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PAGE 122
ESA?
A. That is right.
Q. Then, insofar as the Ore Verde was concerned
--
A. The Ore Verde was not -- it was a helping hand that
we lent to
somebody, and I built up the bomb, you know, and gave it to
them.
It's part of the museum here. It was a masterpiece.
Q. Who was the people to whom you gave it?
A. To this guy Alanis.
Q. With whom was he working?
A. Another group. There were ninety different
groups.
Q. Do you know the name of the group?
A. Some kind of anticommunist legion, or something
like that.
Groups escape my mind, Williams.
Q. All right, Mr. Morales.
You told us about the Rodriguez' Market and the five or six
during 1966.
A. Oh, Cab Calloway's house -- what was his
name? The last was -- it was funny, because after, you
know, the house was bombed, and the Fire Department got
there, they found, I believe, twenty-four pounds of grass.
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PAGE 123
There was a big spread in the news next day.
Q. Not burned, I hope?
A. No, it was in some other place in the house.
MR. CARHART: It was drying in the back yard.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Who was the owner of the house at the time?
A. Cab Calloway.
Q. Oh, he, himself, was?
A. Oh, yes, he, himself, was.
I'm trying to recall his last name.
Q. Why was the house bombed?
A. Some antagonistic reasons between somebody and
somebody.
Q. Well, I gather that there was some antagonism there
because folks just don't go around bombing the house of
people for whom they feel enduring love.
Q. Well, was it for some political reason, Mr.
Morales, or was it
more to do with business or narcotics or commerce or -
A. No, no narcotics was 150 miles away from anybody's
you know, mind, in those days.
Q. Back in those days, everybody wasn't --
A. MS. COHAN: Of narcotics charges.
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PAGE 124
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. I meant in the kind of more dramatic sense, you
know, than the
literary sense.
Why was Cab Calloway's house bombed?
A. He made some derogatory remarks, got into some
brawl with another common friend, and we just went by there
and put a bomb to the house, and that was the end of it, you
know, and it was a surprise to everybody that there was
grass inside the house.
Q. Well, now, I know, for example, if I want to give
my friend Carhart a party and really surprise him, I will go
out and spend a hundred bucks for
one of those big cakes with a pretty lady inside delivered.
I get the impression that somebody must have disliked Cab
Calloway an awful lot?
A. Oh, I did for sure.
Q. (Continuing) -- to spend that kind of money.
What does something like that cost, or what did it cost back
then?
A. What?
Q. To have his hose bombed?
A. What do you mean "cost"?
Q. To pay the people to do it and buy the materials
and that kind
of stuff?
A. No, the material was free around town. It
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PAGE 125
was floating. There were pounds and pounds and pounds
of C4 and dynamite and blasting caps.
Miami was a powder keg. In terms of money, cost
nothing. I mean, anybody could, you know, give you --
"You've got any C4?" Yes, I've got fifty
pounds." "Okay. Let me have ten pounds."
Q. Kind of like fronting somebody some dope later on?
A. Huh?
Q. Kind of like of fronting somebody some dope?
A. I disagree with you. There is a misture there
that does not apply to whatever you are trying to imply.
Q. You are right. It's not an accurate analogy.
Did you do it for free, or were you paid for it?
A. That was for the fun of it.
Q. Who else did it with you? Who else was with
you?
A. Oh, Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo, also known as
Panchita Jabon Candado.
(Benedict Kuehne, Esq., entered the room.)
(Off the record.)
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PAGE 126
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. You told me that you bombed Mr. Calloway's house
for free?
A. Yes, that was a free ride.
Actually, I was driving. Panchita is the one who
stepped out of the car for the first time.
MR. CARHART: Where was the bomb placed?
THE WITNESS: By the air conditioner.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Tell me of any episodes that you recall of either
planting a bomb or fabricating one?
A. Oh, there was so many groups at the time that we
reload practice hand grenades, and there were about three or
four different bomb factories going on in Miami, and we were
giving a helping hand to whatever group, you know, wants to
get and assemble bombs and things like that.
In later years, Alpha 66 suffered intensively from a series
of attacks with incendiary devices and things like than
banging in the night, and they were moving from one place to
another.
Q. Were you involved in any of those attacks?
A. No, not at all in the attacks, you know.
I was in the neighborhood.
Q. Doing what?
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PAGE 127
A. Supervising the attacks.
You have to understand, there were about ninety different
groups in Miami, and everybody was quarreling among each
other.
Q. At the time, Ricky, were you also maintaining any
official or semiofficial contact with any governmental
agency?
A. No. I was parking cars.
The first time that I got into the payroll again was in 1968
when I agreed to cooperate with the Federal Bureau of
Investigations, and they placed me in the category of being
a paid informant.
Q. Where were you parking cars?
A. Oh, I parked cars at the Americana Hotel.
Q. Were you gathering any Intelligence information
while you were
working there?
A. Where?
Q. At the Americana?
A. No, I was gathering quarters. Quarters and
quarters and quarters.
I had a wife and three kids at the time.
Q. Can you remember any more bombings in which you
participated between the time you left the Congo and the
time of the Cuban Airliner incident?
A. Do I have to rack my brains now for that, or
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PAGE 128
can we do it --
Q. I really would appreciate it if you would,
Ricky. I absolutely must ask you to rack all of your
brains.
A. To rack all of my brains? Okay.
Let's say -- the Ore Verde -- well, because the Ore Verde is
like a turning point, you know.
Q. How so?
A. How so? Because the alliance that we have
with, you know, two to four different groups was broke there
because there was no excuse why
the time device pencils, you know, there was an acid cap --
they were not
crushed, and that's the reason why the bomb was discovered,
and the motivation that we found out for attacking that
freighter was unreasonable.
The freighter was not going any kind of business with the
Cuban government, so, you know, that stirred a lot more
bickering, you know, and things like that.
Q. Wasn't that checked out beforehand? I mean,
why was the Ore Verde taken?
A. Well, you have to believe sometimes in the word of
somebody, you know, and --
Q. So, you got bad information?
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PAGE 129
A. Yes.
Q. And the detonating device malfunction, was that the
fault of the kid Alanis who put it on the boat?
A. That's been up into speculation for years.
Either he chickened out, or he did it on purpose, or
whatever the things is that he never crushed the capsule.
Q. Well, now, let me see.
There have been other times when you have given the
appearance of being
involved with or in league with a bomber when he thought
that you were giving
him legitimate explosives, but you really weren't isn't that
correct?
A. That is the Orlando Bosch case.
Q. Okay, so although we will talk about that more
later on, what happened with Dr. Bosch here was that you
were delivering large quantities of what he thought was
legitimate dynamite to him, but it was actually dummy
dynamite?
A. Under orders from the F.B.I. I was
carrying orders
from the F.B.I.
Q. You were giving him dummy explosives?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that in the Ore Verde case?
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PAGE 130
A. No, the Ore Verde was pentolite.
It's at the bomb museum there.
Q. My question to you is whether you, yourself, had
something to do with the malfunction of the detonator?
A. No, it was not that.
Q. You intended the bomb to go off?
A. No -- of course, when I built it up, that was the
intention, of course.
Q. Can you remember any other incident or episode in
which you have participated in bombings or the placing of
bombs either directly or indirectly
A. The Mexican Consulate.
Q. Recently?
A. No.
The Mexican Consulate moved at the time out of town.
He was bombed so many times, you know, that it was
incredible.
Q. The guy was just blown up about f our months ago or
so, and it
blew up a lot of my books and rugs and things. You
better not have
had anything to do with that Mexican Consulate bombing.
A. I wish he could get bombed again. I am in
complete disagreement with the Mexican policies in regard to
my country.
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(Off the record.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When did you participate in the bombing of the
Mexican Consulate, and where was it located at the time?
A. There was the Mexican Consulate, and there was the
Mexican Tourist Office, and as far as I can recall, one of
the buildings where they were housed was on Biscayne
Boulevard.
Q. Approximately when?
A. Approximately what?
Q. Approximately when, please, sir?
A. During that bombing campaign in 1966-1967,
beginning of 1968, could be.
Q. Again, was there any physical harm done to anybody,
any personal injury?
A. No, no. Nobody ever got hurt. There
were no human casualties, whatsoever.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because of, you know, the time that the devices
were being set
up, you know, and luck and God was on our side, but we never
have to regret
in those days that any innocent bystander was getting hit.
Besides that, the amount of explosives that was used was
intended only to cause the purpose of ,
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PAGE 132
you know, a certain limit of damage.
Q. Continue to tell me, then, of any other incidents
or episodes you can recall in which you were involved either
directly or indirectly in a bombing
or the fabrication of a bomb?
A. Douglas, at the time, you were running from one
house to another, from one organization to another, was
doing their little bombings, yourself, you know, and that
doesn't mean necessarily that I ha ve anything to do with
them. Even you have to understand.
Q. Yes, I agree. I would only want for you to tell me
about --
A. It was a very confusing period, and the best of my
recollection right now, to the best of my recollection,
racking my brains, that's about it.
Q. Well, I wouldn't want you to tell me about just
kind of, you know, any distance or remote involvement that
you had if you have a blasting cap to somebody who gave it
to somebody else who came to tell you that they were going
to go out three days later and blow up a pig farm. I
don't care about that.
I only care about things in which you were directly involved
either by placing a device, fabricating it, knowing
specifically when and where it was going to be placed?
-------------------------------
PAGE 133
A. So far, the ones I mentioned to you, and in 1968, I
have this disaster, you have to understand that, and the
bombs, the bombing campaign was the 8th
of January, 1968, and February the 14th, I was arrested.
That was a disaster. I wound up in jail for an
extensive amount of time.
Q. That's the disaster for which you refer to your
having been arrested?
A. Right. That was a disaster.
A bombing campaign was going on. At the same time that
I was in the County Jail, bombs were going off all over the
City, and if I had been out, people might have been
thinking, or actually, might have been aware of them, or
been instrumental of them, which I was not.
For instance, two days afterwards, I come out with a bond,
Les Violins --
Q. The restaurant?
A. That could have been around, I went into the County
Jail in February, and I came out, I believe, the 1st of
March.
Q. How high was your bond, by the way? Do you
remember?
A. Hold it. Hold it.
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PAGE 134
Q. Four million dollars?
A. The what?
Q. Your bond?
A. [Y bond -- four million dollars?
Q. How high was it?
A. No, 25,000. It amounted to four million to me
in 1968.
Q. So, the disaster you refer to was your being
arrested?
A. Right.
Q. With what bombing were you specifically charged?
A. With the one that I mentioned to you before in West
Flagler --
the one of the double bombing, so I was $25,000 -- the
amount of the bond,
and by this time, I think there was so many bombs going off
in Miami, I became a suspect for every one of them.
You know, like t here is a rash of burglaries, and they got
one guy, he's supposedly responsible with everything
else, so a couple of days or three days after, you know, I
was released on bond.
I had previously knowledge that a bomb was going to be
placed at the fountain, that is, you know, outside of Les
Violins on Biscayne Boulevard, which
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PAGE 135
was done by another group.
I have no assistance, but I had knowledge, you know, so you
know, the bomb went off, too, but by this time, you know, I
had the F.B.I. on top of me, and I agreed with them to
infiltrate the Cuban power organization of Dr. Orlando
Bosch.
Q. Well, you really didn't have too much infiltrating
to do; did you? I mean, everybody knew you; it was
just a question of walking up and saying, "Hi, it's me,
Ricky, and now, I'm going to spend some time with you";
isn't that about it?
A. More or less.
Q. I mean, Jesus, Ricky, everybody on the street knew
you?
A. Right.
Q. I assume that you knew you didn't have to put on a
trench coat
and a hat and a cape?
A. No, nothing like that.
Q. Sneak around and wear disguises?
A. No, nothing like that. I was moving freely.
Q. It was just making yourself available to him; isn't
that what it amounts to?
A. To whom?
Q. To the folks whom at the F.B.I. wanted you
-------------------------------
PAGE 136
infiltrate?
A. Actually, coming down to the point, if I recollect
correctly, I made myself visible, available to them, and the
doctor just came up to me.
Q. Sure. I mean, all you had to do is like
putting --
A. Standing on a street corner, and that's it.
Q. Putting a piece of bloody meat in front of a shark;
right, you
know, it's going to come. Is that about it?
A. Those are your words.
Q. All right. So, you put yourself out there and
made it known that you were available if Dr. Bosch wanted to
have the benefit of your experience and services, and he
came running right on to it; huh?
A. That's about it.
Q. Now, we'll come back to that in a while, but I'd
like to finish cataloging any other bombing episodes or
incidents in which you participated one way or the other, so
let's come forward now after the 60's period, and the period
of anti-Castro activity that you have described here in
Miami, and let's have you tell me whether there are yet
other incidents of bombing in which you participated either
directly or
-------------------------------
PAGE 137
indirectly?
A. Okay. Now, we are getting to the 70's?
Q. Yes.
A. Let me rack my memory again. I will rack my
memory again, you know, in the course of the rest of the
nighttime about the 60's just in
case you want to go over again that, you know, whatever.
I am going to try to do my best now racking my head.
In the 70's, I supplied hand grenades to a fellow by the
name of Roberto Parsons than he used it against a household
of an individual by the name of
Leon. They have a personal bickering, or whatever it
was, so --
Q. What was Mr. Leon's first name?
A. I don't know. His nickname is Puyi, so I gave
Roberto a hand grenade.
Q. Where did you the get grenade from?
A. From the streets. There were hundreds and
thousands of them. You know, it was not that --
anybody from anybody specifically.
Q. Were they of American manufacturer origin?
A. Yes, it was an M26.
Q. So, what are you telling me, in the early 70's in
Miami, anybody who ever began to know the
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PAGE 138
right folks could go out and get hand grenades, C4's,
anything?
A. Anything. That's Miami's life story.
You cannot deny it. It's been that way since the 50's.
Q. Was the disaffection between Mr. Parsons and the
one called Leon political, or was it just personal?
A. Personal.
Q. How did you know t he one called Parsons?
A. Roberto, since the time that we worked together in
the Free Commandos Organization in the early 60's
Q. What is that?
A. Another organization. There were about ninety
of them.
Q. So, as far as Parons was concerned, as I said
before, to the extent that anybody who knew the right people
could go anyplace in Miami and get anything, to Parsons, you
were the right person; huh?
A. Maybe he talked to somebody else, but finally, he
wind up with
me.
Q. Did you have any more active participation in the
bombing of the Leon residence than just giving the grenade
to Parsons?
A. That was it.
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PAGE 139
Q. Did you plant it or --
A. No.
Q. Or stage it, or anything like that?
A. No.
Q. Are there any others?
A. Alpha 66 again.
Q. When, this time?
A. 1972. I believe it was 1972. There were
so many. There were some other people bombing Alpha.
Q. It sounds to me, if you didn't have anything better
to do, you
just go out an bomb Alpha 66 just for the hell of it to keep
in practice
almost?
MS. COHAN: He was parking cars.
THE WITNESS: And in 1973 --
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Let me just ask you about the 1972 Alpha 66
bombing.
What was your participation in it?
A. I told the bomber, "Go and bomb them, so they will
have to move from 12th Avenue and 6th Street."
Q. So, that was one that you, in effect, arranged and
staged rather than one that you physically did yourself?
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PAGE 140
A. Well, I ordered it, which is different than to
arrange and stage.
Q. I would say so. How would your --
A. No, I wouldn't say so. It's different.
Q. I would certainly say it's different.
It certainly
is a big deal of difference.
Now, what I need to know is, how had your position or
stature in the community changed in the Latin community, so
you were then in the position to order a bombing?
A. Because --
Q. It's like going from maitre d' to head chef.
How come all of a sudden, were you able to say, "You go out
and put a bomb there." What happened to put you in
that position?
A. Douglas, I don't have, you know, an answer for
that. It's just like, you know, I told this friend of
mine, "Go and bomb them," you know.
Q. Let me see if I can help you out because my guess
is than even
Ricardo Morales sometimes can be a little bit modest.
Tell me if this is accurate: By the time the early 70's had
come around, obviously, you had gotten a reputation on the
streets of Miami as somebody
-------------------------------
PAGE 141
being very knowledgeable pertaining to explosives; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Obviously, you got a reputation as well for being a
person who
could put his hands on a wide assortment of explosives
virtually at will;
is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. You also come to be known as a very zealous
anticommunist; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And I gather that you had come to be known as
somebody who was
more or less fearless; I mean, somebody who wasn't afraid to
go out and get
mixed up in the thick of it; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. So, you were, by that time, regarded as being
somewhat of a leader of certain segments of the Latin
community who has interests similar to yours?
A. That is correct.
Q. Obviously, to the extent that the time had come
when you really didn't have any problem in getting people
who shared interests, to yours to
participate with you in doing things that they thought were
proper or required
under the circumstances
-------------------------------
PAGE 142
in which you had a common interest; is that it?
A. That is right.
Q. And you were looked upon a leader of sorts; huh?
A. If you want to put it that way.
Q. So, then, it was something that was kind of natural
evolution of things where you got to the spot where you were
in a position where now people were looking to you to be
told what to do, and when you thought it appropriate, you
told them?
A. Not in that context.
Q. Well, in the context that we have been discussing?
A. Than is right.
Q. Does that make it accurate?
A. Fairly.
Q. How would you change it? I mean, what I am
trying to do,
Ricky, I'm trying to get an idea of how your posture would
have changed during
that period of time to kind of get you, say, in a position
to walk into the
country of Venezuela and say, "Here, I am," and have them
hand you a little
bit of time?
A. That's not the way it happened, Mr. Williams, and
we discussed
that before, and if you want to go into that, you know, I am
very willing
to do so, but
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PAGE 143
it is not that -- "Here's Ricardo Morales and all the doors
start opening." That is not the way.
Q. No, not quite, but it is correct to say that by
that time, you
had acquired not only a stature but a kind of a mystique, at
least locally,
in the Miami community?
A. Propaganda, you know, starts developing.
Q. Don't be modest now. I mean, now is the time
for you to tell me the truth, even if your modesty otherwise
would keep you from talking about
it.
(Off the record.)
MR. CARHART: We are about to discuss how all doors flew open
in Venezuela.
MR. WILLIAMS: I know just where I am.
(Off the record.)
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. What I am trying to find out, Ricky, is this --
A. 1972?
Q. Yes, in order for me to get kind of a full
awareness of how things were progressing and what you were
doing and how it all comes together, I was just trying to
find out whether the appearance than has been created is
accurate and that had gotten to the spot
------------------------------
PAGE 144
where you could move easily among the community here in the
Miami area?
A. Right, yes.
Q. For the most part, get about anything done that you
wanted to get done?
A. I had developed quite a bit of informants or
sources -- whatever -- which were supplying me the bulk of
information.
I have already testified in two drug cases for D.E.A.
Q. When you say "informants", you mean it in the
literal source?
A. I was an informant, so I have the sources.
Q. And?
A. I have --
Q. Go ahead.
A. I have established a relationship with D.E.A.
I have made two major drug cases with them, which resulted
in a lot of convictions.
I have established again a relationship with the
Counterintelligence Office of the C.I.A. down here in Miami,
and I was being provided funds which were a rented car and
extra -- you know, allowance.
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PAGE 145
Q. By C.I.A.?
A. By Gramco.
Q. Which was in the early 70's as it turned out, the
operating front or entity of the C.I.A.?
A. Well, they were running some sort of multifund
whatever operation, but they have a special, you know, to be
used for -
Q. C.I.A. purposes?
A. C.I.A. purposes, which enabled me to travel down to
South American, and that's how I got down to Caracas.
Q. So, we're still talking about the early 70's?
A. We're talking about 1972.
Q. Clearly, in establishing your contacts or sources
of information, your C.I.A. training hadn't hurt you; I
mean, you were able to use that, obviously;
is that correct, in order to know how to set up a network?
A. I was an experienced operator.
Q. Now, from than time forward, were there still other
incidents of bombing or explosives?
A. There was one in 1973 that concerned this
individual, Humberto
Trueba, who was, at the time, a source o information for
D.E.A., and has
threat
-------------------------------
PAGE 146
to kidnap or to assassinate or whatever -- he threat the
family of -- what's the name of this -- of Rafael Garcia,
who was the top guy in Gramco -- whatever his position there
in Gramco, and he is security people, you know, and the
security people were very disturbed about what Mr. Trueba
was doing, and Mr.
Trueba published a letter, you know, uncovering certain use
of Gramco facilities
by the Central Intelligence Agency.
Q. Now that you mention that name --
A. Of course, he explained here to the State
Attorney's Office about me -- things like that.
I got a call from Spain -- I believe it was from Spain --
you know, and
I was ordered to, you know, throw a hand grenade over his
place, which I
did.
Q. Who told you to do that?
A. The security chief of Rafael Garcia.
Q. At his home?
A. Huh?
Q. At Trueba's home?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that?
A. I believe it was in May of 1973.
Q. What part of town was that?
A. Northwest section.
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PAGE 147
Q. Was anybody hurt there?
A. No.
Q. What was it -- just to kind of intimidate or
frighten him?
A. Well, the purpose, I never questioned it. I
just got the
order, and I carry out.
Q. Did it seem to you to be for the purpose of
intimidating him to say, in effect, "back off"?
A. He was the one who was intimidating and threatening
the people, you know, which I have no knowledge of -- the
problems, you know, whatever they were.
Q. And you performed the job or the service for the
Gramco Security people because of Gramco's connection with
the C.I.A.?
A. Say that again?
Q. The reason that you went ahead and did what
somebody connected
with security from Gramco told you to do was because of
Gramco's connection
with the C.I.A.?
A. Basically.
Q. Were there any others?
A. In 1973?
Q. Any time coming forward? Any other incidents
in which you participated in a bombing?
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PAGE 148
A. No, not in 1973
Q. In 1974, actually, you know, they returned the coin
to me, and
while I was driving one of the rental cars, you know, a bomb
blew up, and
luckily, you know, I walk away from the wreckage.
A. Do you know who did it?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. Took me four years to find out, or three years.
Q. Who?
A. Gaspar Jimenez.
Q. Who is he?
A. He is in Mexico.
Q. Who was he?
A. He was a member of the Accion Cubana, Orlando Bosch
group.
Q. Did Dr. Bosch put him up to it?
A. No. Dr. Bosch actually was not in the country
at the time that incident happened as far as I can tell or
through my intelligence gathering.
It was his own idea. Maybe he disliked me so much for
some reason
that he tried to kill me.
Q. Where in 1974, and you're the --
A. I'm the victim.
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PAGE 149
Q. You are at the getting end?
A. I am the victim.
Q. Were there any other episodes that followed that in
which you reverted to your more familiar role of the
perpetrator --bombings, explosions -- that sort?
A. Familiar role of what?
Q. I said, the more familiar role, the one who was
doing it, the perpetrator, instead of the recipient?
A. You know, perpetrator, I will take it as a
derogatory remark about my person.
Q. Not intended as derogatory.
A. That's the way I take it -- as derogatory.
MR. CARHART: It's a neutral term. It only means one
who does it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I will withdraw it.
THE WITNESS: To me, it matters. I've got my values,
you know.
Let's go. No, see, 1974 was a very hectic year, and
since my traveling has increased you know, to such an
extent, you know, to South America, and no, nothing
happened.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. By that time, you were in place in DISIP
-------------------------------
PAGE 150
in Venezuela?
A. No, no, not yet. I was creating my sources,
my, you know, relationships there, and I already had
recruited Orlando Garcia for the C.I.A., which was the
primary objective of my first, very first trips down to
Venezuela.
Q. So, you were still using your own situation for
your use rather than having gone into the active service of
another government?
A. Not for my use. I was just receiving orders
and carrying
out orders.
Q. C.I.A. orders?
A. C.I.A. orders.
Q. We will continue to talk about the bombings in a
second, but let me ask you this kind of on the side.
Are you presently an agent for the C.I.A.?
A. No.
Q. Are you presently and agent for any agency or
division or branch or bureau of the United States
Government?
A. No, sir.
MS. COHAN: Objection. Asked and answered.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. When is the next time, if at all, that you
-------------------------------
PAGE 151
did participate in another episode of bombing either by
fabricating or placing an explosive device?
A. The Cuban Air Force plane.
Q. We've already covered that in depth?
MS. COHAN: Not really, but --
THE WITNESS: Not in depth.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Where was the aircraft when the bomb was placed on
board it?
A. When was it?
Q. Where was the aircraft when the bomb was placed on
it?
A. Between -- the exact place?
Q. No, when the bomb was placed on it to begin with,
not when it exploded, but when it first put on board?
A. Oh, between Trinidad and Barbados.
Q. A passenger on board placed the bomb?
A. Yes, apparently.
Q. Who did that?
A. According to his own confession, a Venezuelan by
the name of Hernan Ricardo.
Q. Had you known the man before that episode?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he actually place the bomb, putting
-------------------------------
PAGE 152
aside, what he said, Ricky? I mean, whatever might
have been done
for media benefit or whatever?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Had you known him before?
A. He was a source of my division, and he carried an
I.D. from DISIP.
Q. Who was his control in DISIP, Ricky?
A. Huh?
Q. Who was his control in DISIP?
A. I was his control.
Q. Let's go forward from there.
After that, was there yet another episode in which you were
involved in
the placing or detonation of an explosive device?
A. After the Cuban Air Force plane?
Q. Yes.
A. (Nodding in the negative.)
Q. Not from that date to this?
A. (Nodding in the negative.)
Q. You have to give me a verbal for the record, Ricky.
A. Nope.
I had intentions, at one point, but I was not able to carry
on with it.
Q. Who or what was the object of those
-------------------------------
PAGE 153
intentions?
A. Mr. Julio Faez.
Q. Why was that? Why could you not carry it out?
A. Because I couldn't find explosives.
Q. Was that something that arose at a time when you
and Quesada were spending a lot of time together?
A. Yes.
Q. What had taken place that made you want to bomb
Julio Faez?
A. He has taken a lot of money from the proceedings of
the drug business, and he ha conned Mr. Quesada into giving
him money, and I found out that he
was planning to disappear, and I was doing some stationary
surveillance of
his home, and I detect all the obvious movements about
somebody who is planning
to take a long vacation.
Q. Go ahead, sir.
A. And I got feeling about, you know, demolishing his
cars and the front part of his house in the middle of his
movements for his deeds.
Q. Sure would have been a clear message, I guess?
-------------------------------
PAGE 154
A. Not a message. It would have been some sort
of punishment for him.
He will have to have a lot of explanation to do about it
when everybody
will have to be there asking why you got bombed.
Q. When the smoke cleared; huh?
A. Of course.
Q. We are now in --
A. No, that happened in 1980.
Q. In 1980 around the Summer or early Fall?
A. The Summer, Summer of 1981.
Q. How had you learned that he had taken money from
Quesada or Arias?
A. From their own statements.
Q. How much money was involved?
A. How much money was involved?
Q. Yes?
A. Over 50,000. Maybe 80,000. Maybe
100,000. All depends who you want to believe, because
he ain't took no money from me.
Q. But, in any event, because of your closeness with
Quesada at the time, you decided that Faez both had been
stopped and had to be a little bit
embarrassed or compromised, and the way to do it was to blow
up his car and
his hose?
-------------------------------
PAGE 155
A. Say that again?
Q. Because of your closeness with Quesada at the time,
you decided than Faez had to be stopped, and he had to be
embarrassed or put in a compromising position, and you
assumed that the way to do it was to blow up his car or part
of his house or both?
A. That was my gut feeling at the time.
Q. Why couldn't you get the materials, Ricky?
A. Well, you know, I just asked ,you know, a couple of
fellows about it, and they said, "We don't have it."
Q. I mean, talk about the cobbler's children going
barefoot.
A. Unfortunately, Douglas, that is what happened.
Unfortunately or fortunately, or whatever, you know, the way
you want to put it. I was not able to get ahold of
blasting caps, time fuses, and explosives.
In fact, the people that I asked for, they denied to
me. They don't want to get involved.
Q. You mean, so far as you could tell, they had it,
but they held
it back?
A. Well, I thought that they had it. I don't
know for sure if they had it or not, but the same
-------------------------------
PAGE 156
way that, in the past, people will approach me and say,
"Ricky, do you have a hand grenade, " and I will say,
"Yes,"and take it.
I thought that maybe so and so will have nothing, and I
approach them, and they deny having anything, refusing to
give me.
Q. Sure lets you know who your friends are; doesn't
it?
A. (No response.)
Q. Well, it really isn't of major importance, but
weren't there other sources to whom you could have turned or
to which you could have turned had the need been more
pressing -- sources out of the country or sources, perhaps
even connected with some --
A. Well, by this time that I couldn't you know, get
them from the
ones that I chose to ask, Mr. Faez had already gone, so
there was no purchase to carry on preposterous thinking.
Q. Can you remember any more episodes or incidents of
bombing or firing, you know, incendiary bombs or anything
like that that you have done aside from those that you have
related to us?
A. I am going to rack my brains, you know. You
have to remember, Mr. Williams, that you know, there were
hectic years in the community,
-------------------------------
PAGE 157
and there was so much involved, you know, and what can I
tell you?
MR. CARHART: How about any of the bombings at Replica?
THE WITNESS: No, I never had anything to do with those.
MR. WILLIAMS: Max Lesnick was --
THE WITNESS: He was recently bombed, also.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Again?
A. Again, yes.
No, Max and myself, even though we have certain, you know,
disagreements in the early 70's you know, I patch up my
relationship with him, which are the best nature afterwards,
and I have not anything to do with them.
Q. What about a fellow by the name of De Los
Santos? Did you ever participate --
A. What's the name?
Q. De Los Santos? Did you ever participate in --
A. De Los What?
Q. Santos, S-a-n-t-o-s?
A. Do you have a specific date?
Q. No, I am asking you if you can respond to that
name. Did
you ever participate to putting any
-------------------------------
PAGE 158
kind --
A. Could it be a construction guy? De Los Santos
-- that was not me. That was Pepe Suarez.
Q. How did Pepe Suarez figure into it?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Well, what was Suarez' connection with De Los
Santos?
A. I don't know.
Q. How do you know it was Suarez who did it?
A. Douglas, at that time, every time that a bomb goes
off, right at those times, since I know Pepe Suarez quite
well -- oh, wait, wait, wait.
I gave him the explosives.
Wait, wait, wait. I gave him the explosives.
No, no, no. Oh, yes, I know. I was confused with
another Suarez.
No, no, no. You are right. You me off track with
a different Suarez. No, that is Pepe Bombo.
Q. B.o.m.b.o?
A. Well, that's the way he called him the day
afterwards.
Q. Pepe the bomb?
A. Pepe the bomber.
-------------------------------
PAGE 159
Q. What was his real name?
A. Jose Suarez.
Now that you mention him, I also gave him the explosives to
-- they did
a number of this guy Pulido, Guiberto [GILBERTO?] Pulido,
they did a number on him. Well, actually, it was not
me the one who gave the explosives. You know, I refer
-- I make a referral to -- I made a referral, you know,
because I thought that the source was -- you know, the
customer, the one asking
for it, didn't have too much confidence in him, and also, I
told him, you
know, go to see somebody else.
Q. This was on De Los Santos or Pulido?
A. On Pulido.
Q. Was Pulido the Venezuelan?
A. No the Cuban. Ironside. He's in a
wheelchair.
(Off the record)
BY MR .WILLIAMS:
Q. Insofar as the Jose Suarez-De Los Santos incident
was concerned, you gave Suarez the explosives?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that?
A. What was that?
-------------------------------
PAGE 160
Q. What kind of explosives?
MS. COHAN: What are we talking about?
MR. WILLIAMS: Let's put a date on it.
THE WITNESS: Geladin.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Give me an approximate point in time; can you,
Ricky?
A. No.
Q. In the 70's?
A. Yes, 70's.
Q. 1977, 1978, 1979?
A. No, no, no. That was about the time that I
was living by
the Yellow Birds in Suarez and living close by, so that was
to be after my
second divorce, which we could set it around 1973.
Q. Why was De Los Santos --
A. No, no, no. I'm not sure about that. Forget
about 1973. It was 1972 because I did move to the Yellow
Birds until the end of --
MS. COHAN: Are you saying Jail Birds or Yellow?
THE WITNESS: Yellow Birds. It's two towers. They are
yellow -- they are not yellow now. They are chocolate.
-------------------------------
PAGE 161
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Where? What are you talking about?
A. 7th and 45 Avenue.
Q. Why was De Los Santos selected for --
A. Beats me.
Q. Selected for explosion?
A. Beats me.
Later on, I met the wife -- many years afterwards, and there
was somebody jumping the fence to see the wife, or whatever,
you know. It's not my
concern. That's a problem.
Q. Were you paid for that, Ricky?
A. Who?
Q. Were you paid for the explosives in the De Los
Santos thing?
A. I bought the explosives.
Q. And donated them to Suarez?
A. No. No, I charge for explosives because I
have to pay for the explosives.
Q. Let me ask you about one other quick incident, and
then, we will recess for the evening, because it's shortly
before 5:00.
There was an episode in which you started to either
fabricate or place an explosive device that was to go into a
home, and it turned out that, at the
-------------------------------
PAGE 162
time that the device was to be detonated or was to have been
set for detonation, that there was a woman inside the house
or building, as the case may be, who
turned out to Raul Diaz' mother. Do you remember that
?
A. Say that again?
Q. Raul Diaz' mother, the policeman Raul Diaz?
A. Yes.
Q. Within a place or home or a building of some sort
about which you had started or had intended to introduce an
explosive device?
A. Well, I didn't know that it was Raul Diaz' mother
was there.
I found out years later was there -- now.
Q. Which one are you talking about?
A. The John Clarence Cook bombing.
Actually, was not one bombing. It was two bombings.
MS. COHAN: Can we quit for the evening on that name?
MR. WILLIAMS: No, we'll just tie this one up.
THE WITNESS: It was two bombings to correct yourself.
It was two bombings. It was not one bombing.
MR. WILLIAMS: We'll start with this tomorrow because the
court reporter
has to change paper anyway, so we will start with the John
Clarence Cook
bombings in the morning; okay?
(Whereupon, the deposition was recessed until Tuesday, April
6th, 1982 at 10:30 o'clock a.m.)
-------------------------------
PAGE 164
STATE OF FLORIDA:
SS.
COUNTY OF DADE:
I, JOYCEE WAX, Shorthand reporter and Notary Public in and
for the State of Florida at Large, do hereby certify that
the foregoing deposition of RICARDO MORALES NAVARETTE, by me
duly sworn, was taken at the time and place herein set
forth; that the deposition was recorded stenographically by
me and reduced to typewritten form under my personal
supervision; that the foregoing is a
true and correct record of the deposition, and that I am in
no way interested in the event of the cause.
IT WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my had and affixed
my official seal in the City of Miami, County of Dade, State
of Florida, this 18th day of April,
1982.
________________
JOYCEE WAX
Notary Public in and for the
State of Florida at Large
My Commission expires:
March 2, 1985
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