DEPOSITION OF
RICARDO MORALES
NAVARETTE
Part I-B
[ back
to part
1A ]
[NOTE: The reporter on this deposition didn't use a spell
check.
Some of the spelling errors have been corrected and follow
the incorrect
word in parentheses.]
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE
ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN
AND FOR DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.
81-17257
81-17267
81-17272
81-17260
81-17264
81-17269
81-17280
STATE OF FLORIDA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
ALFREDO ARIAS, et al,
Defendants
State Attorney's Office
Metro Justice Building
1351 N.W. 12th Street
Miami, Fl.
Friday, April 2, 1982
2:15 P.M.
DEPOSITION OF RICARDO MORALES NAVAREHE [NAVARETTE]
PART I-B
Taken before Mary Jane Grant, Notary Public for the State of
Florida at Large,
pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition filed in the above
cause.
------------------------
PAGE 2
APPEARANCES
RINA COHAN, ESQ.
Assistant State Attorney
on behalf of Plaintiff
KIERAN FALLON, ESQ.
on behalf of Plaintiff.
DOUGLAS WILLIAMS, ESQ.
Rivergate Plaza
Suite 700
444 Brickell [BRICKEL] Avenue
Miami, Florida
on behalf of Defendant.
ALSO PRESENT
OFFICER D.C. DIAZ
---------------------------------------
PAGE 2a
CERTIFIED QUESTIONS
I, Mary Jane Grant, hereby certify that counsel
for the defendant,
requested the following questions be certified:
Page: 22 Line: 11
Q. Have you filed a tax return for 1979, 1980, or
1981?
A. I don't have to answer that question to you, sir.
Q. Are you refusing to answer it?
A. I am not refusing to answer it. I am telling
you that I don't
have to answer it. I am not refusing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Certify it, please.
Page: 26 Line: 6
Q. How much were you paid?
A. I'm not going to tell you. Ask the
Marshals. I might
expose some of their operation, I believe.
So you better,
you know --
MR. WILLIAMS: Certify it, please.
------------------------
PAGE 3
Thereupon;
RICARDO MORALES NAVAREHE [NAVARETTE]
was called as a witness and, having been duly sworn, was
examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. We were last talking about the training that you
had been getting
from the Mossad in Venezuela, while you were a part of
DISIP.
What was the period of time during which you were actually
living in Venezuela,
as your primary residence?
You said you first went down there in 1972 or so?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you, upon your arrival in Venezuela, in 1972,
in effect, stay
there as your primary place of residence until 1976?
A. No. I was commuting back and forth.
At one point, I was holding apartments in both
countries.
Q. During that period of time, while you were
commuting, was
your Miami residence in Biscayne Twenty One Building, as you
have previously
told us?
A. No. It was the address in 1976 -- >77.
-----------------------------
PAGE 4
Q. Prior to that, where was your Miami office?
A. The Park East Fountainbleau Boulevard. I
can't recall the
exact number of the building.
Q. In Fountainbleau Park?
A. Yeah, Park East. It's right
on the corner
of Flagler and Eighty Seventh Avenue. There is a
complex -- big complex
there. Park East.
Q. With whom were you living?
A. By myself.
Q. During the luncheon recess, did you have the
opportunity to
talk about any of the details of your testimony or the
questions that you
expected would be asked of you, with Ms. Cohan or Mr. Diaz
or Mr. Puig?
A. I was too busy munching my sandwich.
Q. I take that to be a no.
Prior to assuming the supervisory positions that you
described with
the Venezuela government, what was the nature of your
employment in Venezuela?
A. Would you repeat that question again for me,
please, sir?
What do you mean by supervisory position?
I was trying to pick up on that word supervisory.
Because actually,
there was no supervisory position, there. I mean, you
get everything
mixed up. You are trying to mix it up.
-----------------------------
PAGE 5
Q. If you do not understand the question, tell me.
A. That's exactly what I am trying to tell you.
I don=t understand the question with that word supervisory.
Q. There came a time, you told us earlier, when you
were made the chief
of commissor or commander or head huncho, whatever you want
to call it --
A. You are the one calling it head huncho.
It's a position. It's a rank. And it's
commissor.
That was the ultimate -- the last position that I hold
in the
DISIP. Commissor. It's a rank.
Q. Would you describe that as being a supervisory
position?
A. It's not a supervisory position.
Q. You did not have supervision an control over
anybody else?
A. I had supervision and control of the whole
division. Because
I was a commissor.
Q. All right. Prior to the time that you were
appointed to that
position of supervision --
A. It's not the position of supervision.
Q. Whatever you want to call it.
A. Whatever you want to call it.
Q. What did you do before that?
-----------------------------------
PAGE 6
A. What?
Q. What did you do before that?
A. I told you before, I was an inspector.
Q. Inspecting what?
A. Inspecting nothing.
It's a rank. Inspector. It's like sergeants,
corporals, lieutenants,
captain. It's a chain of command.
Q. I see.
For whom or in what were you an inspector?
A. In the DISIP.
Q. In that capacity, what was the nature of your job?
A. Counter-intelligence.
Q. Did you assume the position of inspector,
upon your first
arrival in Venezuela or, did you have some --
A. No. No.
Q. Let me finish the question.
Or, did you have some civilian work outside the government
in Venezuela,
before you were hired by DISIP?
A. No.
Q. No, to which?
A. I was not a civilian, there. I was a
government employee.
-------------------------
PAGE 7
Q. From the moment you arrived?
A. In '72?
Q. Yes.
A. No. Not in '72.
In '74.
Q. What did you do before 1972 and 1974?
A. In Venezuela?
Q. Yes.
A. Oh, that's different. That's a lot different.
What did I do there?
Q. Yes.
A. Established an information net.
Q. Working on your own, I take it, or, working for
yourself, as opposed
for anybody else?
A. What do you mean working by my own?
Q. Were you in anybody's employe [EMPLOYEE]?
A. At the time?
When?
Q. When you said it.
A. When I said nothing. What time?
What year? '72?
'73 and '74?
I was a paid informant for the Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. While you were in Venezuela?
A. Yeah.
-----------------------------
PAGE 8
Q. And, was it during that same period of time that
you were also establishing
an information net?
A. Of course.
Because I knew that I was going to wind up with the job in
the government.
Q. At the time that you went to Venezuela, in 1972,
were you already,
as you put it, a paid informant for the F.B.I.?
A. Yes. As a matter of public record.
Q. It does not much matter, I suppose.
A. It is a matter of public record.
Q. Let's see if we can make this proceeding more
tolerable for
both of us.
A. For you. I'm very pleased, you know.
Q. Your job is here to answer questions. I
will ask them.
A. No. I don't have a job here. I have a
duty.
Q. However you want to say it.
When I ask you a question --
A. Don't put words in my mouth or try to situate me in
a capacity which,
you know, is not the way it is.
Q. If I do not ask you a question, then there is no need for
you to say anything.
You only need to tell me what is necessary.
A. Don't tell me --
-------------------------
PAGE 9
Q. You only need answer what is necessary to answer
the question.
You do not have to tell me any more of that.
MS. COHAN: Objection. The witness will answer
questions as he
sees fit.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I am afraid that is not quite the
case.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Prior to going to Venezuela in 1972, where were you
residing?
A. Here, in Miami.
Q. Where?
A. I have two apartments at different areas -- in the
area of Seventh
Street, N.W., and Forty Fifth Avenue and Fifty Second
Avenue, whichever
came first.
Q. With whom were you living?
A. By myself.
Q. Which one of those two apartments was your
primary place of
residence?
A. Oh, before that?
I was married. That was my second marriage. I
was living with
the second wife and the kids.
Q. This is 1972, before going to Venezuela?
A. No.
Well, that's around when I, you know, started
----------------------
PAGE 10
the war sound proceedings in 1972.
Q. What was the name of your former wife, please?
A. Iramina (phonetically).
Q. This is your second wife?
A. That is my second wife. Ex-wife.
Q. By what name is she known today?
A. I do believe that she still uses the last name of
Morales.
Q. Where does she resides?
A. In Miami.
Q. Where, please, sir?
A. Huh?
Q. Where, please?
A. Hialeah.
Q. Do you know her address?
A. No.
Q. Do you know her phone number?
A. No.
She works at the Miami Herald.
Q. In what capacity?
A. I believe that she is one of the top superiors,
there. Whatever.
If you call there, they can tell you.
Q. While your were living with your second wife, where
was your residence?
------------------------
PAGE 11
A. Oh, we moved to at least four or five -- six
different addresses.
Q. All in the greater Miami area?
A. Yes. All in Miami.
Q. What was your first wife's name?
A. Magda.
Q. Is she still living?
A. I believe so.
Q. By what surname is she presently known?
A. I don't know. Because she remarried. On
at least two
more occasions. And really, I don't know.
Q. Where is she living?
A. In Miami, too. As far as I know.
Q. What is the name of the man to whom you most
recently knew
her to be married ?
A. Last name was Machin. M-A-C-H-I-N.
Q. First name?
A. I don't know.
I know it was Machin. Because she changed from Morales
to Machin.
But she divorced that guy, and then married again. And
I believe that
she got another divorce, and then married again. She's
a very lucky
woman.
Q. Your testimony is, that you do not know any surname
that she used,
subsequent to Machin?
-------------------------
PAGE 12
A. No. That's definitely --
Q. Did you have children with her?
A. Three.
Q. Are they all over the age of eighteen?
A. Only two.
Q. Where do they live?
A. Who?
Q. Your children?
A. The first one?
Q. All of them.
A. The other one is in the U.S. Marine Corps.
Q. What is his name?
A. Raul.
Q. What are the other two names?
A. Ricky --
MS. COHAN: What is the name of the one in the Marines?
THE WITNESS: Raul.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Where does he live?
A. He lives with the mother, I believe.
Q. Have you ever known him to have an
occupational profession?
--------------------------
PAGE 13
A. Yes.
MS. COHAN: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I already answered to that question, at
the beginning.
In the hotels, down in Miami. In the tour capacity.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. What is your immigration and naturalization
status with the
United States?
A. I don't know.
Q. Are you a citizen?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever applied for citizenship?
A. No.
Q. Are you a permanent resident?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever applied for permanent
residency?
A. Never.
Q. When did you first come to the United States,
from wherever
it is you came from?
A. From the Republic of Cuba, my birth place.
From the country that I was born. That's a name.
Republic of
Cuba. November 29th, 1960.
Q. Were you admitted under refugee status, when you
came into this
country?
A. No. Political refugee.
----------------------
PAGE 14
Q. May I assume that your point of entry, into this
country, was Miami?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you enter by yourself or, were you admitted
with other
persons traveling in your group?
A. We -- I was at the Embassy in Havana, Cuba.
And, the whole
load -- there were about six of u who had American
visas. So we
traveled directly to the United States, instead of going
down to Brazil.
I was a political refugee at the time.
Q. What kind of visa was issued to you by the United
States, in Havana?
A. Tours.
Q. Have you ever had any conversations with any
officers or employees
of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, about
your
status as a resident in the United States or, your status by
virtue of your
presence in the United States?
A. Of course.
Q. On how many occasions?
A. As I recall, when I applied for my alien
number in Newark
--
Q. When was that?
A. New Jersey.
Oh, that was in the late sixties, or early
-------------------------
PAGE 15
'61.
Q. When else?
A. Oh, when I was arrested after a raid in Cuba.
Returning from a raid
in Cuba.
Q. When was that?
A. Summer of either '62 or '63.
Q. Were you arrested, then?
A. Yeah. The whole group was arrested.
Q. What was the nature of your communication
with Immigration
in the early sixties, at the time you returned from
Cuba, pertaining
to your status in this country?
A. No. In 1961.
I just went down to the INS office, and I applied for
a political refugee
status, which was given to me.
And, after we returned from the raid, INS just debriefed
everyone from the
group, about what we did down there, and why we did it, you
know -- and where
we landed and what happened. And, now we got away and
things like that.
Q. When was the last time that you have had any
specific conversation
with anybody from INS, expressly about your status in this
country?
A. The last time I ever talked to INS people, was
----------------------
PAGE 16
after the raid.
Q. 1962 or A63?
A. Right.
Q. And, so far as you know, you are still here in the
status of a political
refugee?
A. I cannot make a statement about that.
Q. Well --
A. Because, I don't know.
Q. Do you have any knowledge that indicates that your
status with INS
has changed since you were first given refugee status?
A. Well, I filed and signed INS papers with the
Marshal service
and the determination of that application, I don't know.
Q. What kind of papers did you fill out?
A. Well, I signed the forms that was presented to
me. And they
were supposed to -- they were supposed to file the forms for
me, based upon
my former status down here.
Q. For what purpose did you file the form?
A. As a continued resident in the United States.
Q. And, that was just when you were with
the United States
Marshal Service in protective custody?
A. That's right.
Q. What status were you seeking by the applica-
-----------------------
PAGE 17
tion that you filed?
A. I listed the same one that I got before.
Q. Political refugee?
A. That's right. Or, whatever they want to come
up with, you
know.
Q. Have you heard from any source or anything,
since 1962 or
'63, that has either indicated to you indirectly or
directly, that
your Immigration status in this country has changed from
that of a political
refugee?
A. Of course.
Q. Tell me what you heard.
A. When I applied for the visa in the Embassy, in
Venezuela --
Q. What did you learn, then?
A. Nothing. They gave me a multiply entry --
Q. That would have been on the occasion of your return
from Venezuela,
in 1976?
A. Mr. Williams, when I arrived there in
Venezuela, you know,
there was a question that I have to be a Venezuelan
citizen, just to
hold a higher position inside the government.
So I was made a Venezulian [VENEZUELAN] citizen by President
Carlos Andres
Perez -- by the former President.
So right away, I went down to the American
-----------------------
PAGE 18
Embassy, and filled out an application for a tour visa,
which was, you know,
a stamped in my Venezulian [VENEZUELAN]
passport. And that's
how I keep commuting back and forth to the United
States from wherever
I was.
Q. Then presently, you hold Venezulian citizenship and
travel on a
--
A. That's technicality. And yes and no.
Q. In your mind, do you have Venezulian
[VENEZUELAN] citizenship?
A. No. No. No.
I am a Cuban. I was born a Cuban. I am a
Cuban. And
I will die a Cuban.
That has been -- the matter has been taken care of by
attorneys over
there. And things like that. So yes an
no. That's
correct answer for that.
Q. Tell me what your understanding of the technicality
is?
A. You are the one that has to understand the
technicality.
Q. I just asked you a question.
What understanding do you have of whatever the technicality
is, that bears
upon your citizenship?
A. What citizenship?
Q. Any?
What is the technicality that you believe to
---------------------
PAGE 19
exist?
A. It's like, you know, in Cuba, according to the
constitution, I am
not a Cuban no more. Even though I was born there.
Q. What is the technicality?
A. The technicality there is, that how they can
deny that I am
a Cuban, since I was born there. Just because they
took over and said,
whoever is not with us, is not a Cuban any more.
Q. You have a Venezulan [VENEZUELAN] passport;
don't you?
A. It expired.
Q. Do you have any passport?
A. No. I don't have any passports.
Q. Your understanding then, is that the present
government in Cuba,
by some decree, has restricken you --
A. Not by a decree.
The government constitution, that they enacted in 1973 or
1975, just that
word had been engaged in covert actions,, to overthrow the
El Castro -- so
I was considered not a Cuban any more. There are some
many chapters
concerning that.
Q. Have you renounced your Venezuelan citizenship.
A. I am in that process.
Q. Have you at this time, signed any documents
-----------------------------
PAGE 20
renouncing your Venezulan [VENEZUELAN] citizenship?
A. The papers are on the way.
Q. Is that a no, sir, that you have not signed
any?
A. You see, the legal procedure down there in
Venezuela is quite different.
Q. Mr. Morales, have you signed any papers
renouncing your citizenship
or not?
A. I already signed the paper. I already
announced the authority
to start the proceedings on that.
It's like a power of attorney. But it=s being called
there, different.
Q. Have you ever filed a tax return with the Internal
Revenue Service?
A. Oh, yes. And, it was audited by them.
Q. When most recently, did you file a tax return?
A. Oh, up to 1978.
Q. Does that include the calendar year, 1978?
A. What?
Q. Does that include the calendar year, 1978?
A. I believe so.
Q. For how long had you been filing tax returns?
How many years before that, did you file tax returns?
A. Before, when?
------------------------------
PAGE 21
Q. '78?
A. '78 -- never.
Q. So 1978 is the only year in which you filed a tax
return?
A. No. No. No.
They covered '74, '75, '76, '77 and '78, I believe,
too. The whole
investigation, it was brought upon me was from starting in
1974, I believe.
Q. Is that to say that you were at one point, the subject of
an Internal
Revenue Service investigation?
A. No. I was --there was a civil matter brought
against me. It
was a civil matter, not a criminal investigation.
Q. Is it the case that you have not filed a tax return
for 1979, 1980,
or 1981?
A. I don't believe that I have to answer that question
to you.
Q. On what grounds?
A. On the grounds of privacy. On the grounds
that whatever
you want to certify, we can go down there.
Q. No.
The one legitimate claim that you can make is, that you
think to answer the
question might expose yourself to some criminal penalty,
self-incrimination,
the Fifth Amendment.
--------------------------------
PAGE 22
You can use that as well as anybody else.
A. Oh, come on, Mr. Williams.
Q. Is that the grounds upon which you do not want to
answer?
A. There is no Fifth Amendment or
incrimination or
anything like that, involving that. So I don't have to
tell you my
private life about all tax matters and things like that.
Q. Sure you do.
A. Oh, yeah? How?
Q. Have you filed a tax return for 1979, 1980 or 1981?
A. I don't have to answer that question to you, sir.
Q. Are you refusing to answer it?
A. I am not refusing to answer it. I am telling
you that I don't
have to answer it. I am not refusing.
MR. WILLIAMS: Certify it, please.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Are you declining to answer that question on the
grounds that to
answer it might expose yourself to self-incrimination or --
A. No.
Q. --criminal penalties?
A. No. No.
--------------------------------------
PAGE 23
It's just that, it's none of your business. That's
what I'm saying.
Q. Sure it is.
A. No, it's not. It's not o your business.
MS. COHAN: Objection. Bickering should stop.
THE WITNESS: That's the only reason why I am not
answering you that
question. I am not refusing to answer. I am not
answering to
you, because it's none of your business.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, when is the last time that you have been in
the employee of
any third person by which, I mean, an individual,
corporation, government,
governmental agency, or anything or other person, which whom
you communicate,
who might employ you?
A. 1978, January.
Q. By whom were you employed?
A. By the Venezuelan government.
Q. Is it the case then, that between January '78 and
the present, you
have not been in the employee of any other person?
A. I have not been in the payroll of anybody.
Q. Between 1978 and the present, tell me, please, sir,
any and every
source through which you realized any
-------------------------
PAGE 24
kind of income?
A. Say that again?
MR. WILLIAMS: Please read back the question.
(Thereupon, the
question was read back by the court reporter.)
THE WITNESS: The witness protection program, the
Marshals gave me money.
The State of Florida gave me money. And the drug
business gave me money,
too.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
This is between 1978 and the present?
A. No, Mr. Williams. I have not been engaged in
any kind of narcotics
activities since 1980.
Q. All right. Here is my question to you, Mr.
Morales.
You have mentioned three sources of --
A. Right.
So I am pinpointing. Because I am out of that
business.
Q. Here is my question to you.
You mentioned three sources of income --
A. Right. In a broad --
Q. The witness protection program, the marshal
service, and the drug
business.
My question to you is, whether between 1978 and today, there
has been any
other source of income that
-------------------------
PAGE 25
you have realized, besides those three?
A. No.
MS. COHAN: The book?
MR. WILLIAMS: Rina, I will not have this
man helped.
He does not need any help.
THE WITNESS: But I want to hear what she said.
MS. COHAN: Then, you will go on inaccurate answers.
MR. WILLIAMS: That is his problem, until it becomes
the State's problem.
THE WITNESS: What did you say, Rina?
MS. COHAN: I will get you on cross.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. During what periods of time or at what period of
time, were you
receiving money from the United States Marshal Service?
A. Since they took care of me.
Q. When was that?
A. Either January or February, 1981.
Q. Until when?
A. Until I left them, the department.
Q. In November of last year?
A. No.
Q. When did you leave them?
-----------------------
PAGE 26
A. September I believe. On or about September,
1981.
Q. At what intervals were you paid, while you were in
the Marshal Service?
A. Oh, they have a monthly allocation.
Q. How much were you paid?
A. I'm not going to tell you. Ask the
Marshals. I might
expose some of their operation, I believe. So you
better, you
know --
MR. WILLIAMS: Certify it, please.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Between September of 1981 and today, have you
had any source
of income at all?
A. The State was so kind and gentle, that they helped
me out, to get
out of the witness protection program. And , when they
provide funds
for me to do so.
Q. The State of Florida?
A. Yeah, the State. City of Miami Police
Department. The
State Attorneys. Whatever is the State of Florida.
Q. Who actually made those arrangements for you?
A. What?
Q. Who made those arrangements for you?
A. (Indicating). You have it right there.
------------------------
PAGE 27
MR. WILLIAMS: Indicating for the record, the
prosecutor, Ms. Cohan.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. At what intervals have you been paid by the State,
if more than
once, by the State of Florida?
A. I received one installment to get out of the
witness --you know
-- to get away from the Marshals.
And, I received my witness fee, the other day.
And prior to that, before I got into the witness
protection program,
they paid for the Ramada Inn. And, you know, my daily
--
Q. We will go back to that later on.
When you left the Marshall --
A. Why do you have to cut me when I am answering you?
Q. Because I did not ask that.
A. Let me finish my answer. Don't shout at
me, Williams.
Let me finish my answer.
You asked me a question. Let me finish it. Okay?
Q. No.
A. Yes.
Then don't ask no more questions to me. If I'm not
going to finish.
Q. Then leave. If you want to leave, get up and
take your people
and go.
MR. COHAN: Objection.
He is here in response to your subpoena for
deposition. We have every
intention of continuing this deposition in a civil fashion.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Now, listen to the question, Mr. Morales.
If you do not understand the question, Mr. Morales.
If you do not understand the question --
A. But let me finish my answer. That's the only
thing that I
am complaining, now.
Q. Stop yelling. Do not get excited, now.
A. What about when you get excited?
Q. I do not get excited. Now listen to the
question.
A. Okay. It works both ways.
Q. The question is, between September of 1981 and the
present, do you
have that?
A. Yes.
Q. What frequency were you paid money by the
State of Florida?
Now, you told me --
A. I already answered that question.
Q. What was the amount of the one installment payment
that was paid
to you when you left the Marshal?
-------------------------
PAGE 29
A. Six thousand.
Q. This was in September of 1981?
A. On or about September.
They can give you the papers, and the garbage and
whatever, the receipts.
Q. How was that amount determined, Mr. Morales?
A. What?
Q. How was that amount settled upon; six
thousand dollars?
A. I settled it.
Q. It was your choice, your figure?
A. It was my choice.
(Thereupon, a brief discussion was held off the record.)
THE WITNESS: How did I arrive at the amount?
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. How did you select the amount of six thousand
dollars?
A. Oh, very simple. I acknowledge that I -- did
I make a breakdown
for that?
Q. No. They cannot help you.
A. Well, I did make a breakdown for that. And
that's the amount
that I arrived to keep me going on for the next
four months.
Q. In other words, you determined what you thought
---------------------------
PAGE 30
your predictable living expenses would be a monthly
basis?
A. Right. Instead of having, you know --
Q. Monthly installments?
A. Right.
Q. With whom did you have discussions about the
amount that you
were going to be paid?
A. Discussions about the money that I was going to be
paid?
Q. Yes.
With whom, on behalf of the State and or police department?
A. Oh, I talked about it with Rina. And I talked
about it with
-- what is the name of the Major -- Oboz.
Q. When did those conversations take place?
A. And Martinez.
Q. Which Martinez?
A. Raul.
Q. When did those conversations take place?
A. In the summer o 1980.
Q. Did you simply tell them how much money you wanted
or, there
conversation about it among all of you?
A. No.
----------------------------
PAGE 31
I told them that I have, you know, arrived to the conclusion
that that's
the money that I need to get the hell out of the Marshal's
custody.
And the money that I need to move from one place to another,
and to keep
me going on for the next four months. That's exactly
--
Q. Was there any objection raised to the amount by
anybody?
A. No. No. No.
Q. Was it agreed to as soon as you stated it?
A. Yes.
It's not to my knowledge if there was
any between them.
Q. Of course. I am only asking you what you know
or what you
heard.
A. What I heard, no.
Q. And this was shortly before you left the Marshal's
program?
A. Since.
Q. No. That is not the question, Ricky.
Here is the question.
That discussion you had was shortly before you left
the Marshal's program.
A. Otherwise, I would have never been able to leave
the Marshal's
program.
Q. Is that a yes, sir?
A. Otherwise, I will never have been able to leave the
Marshal's program,
which I wanted to leave. And, thanks to them, I
was able to get
the hell out of there.
Q. It sounds like they did you quite a favor.
What was so bad
about it?
A. What?
Q. The Marshal's program?
A. Oh, the place that they relocate me --
Q. So you were glad to get out?
A. I have to. It was a security risk for
me. It was a nightmare.
Q. You're almost making it sound like those folks
saved your skin.
A. Actually, you can tell that. That's the way I
feel.
Q. When did you get your witness fee payment?
A. The first date of the month..
Q. The first of March?
A. The first date of the month.
Q. Just yesterday, April first?
A. Which one are you referring to; the Marshals
or --
Q. The witness fee payment.
--------------------------
PAGE 33
A. Oh, the witness fee payment?
Q. Yes.
A. It was the day before yesterday.
Q. How much was that?
A. Six hundred.
Q. Was that given to you by check?
A. That's right.
Q. Who gave it to you?
A. Oh, we went down to the courthouse, and they wrote
the check over
there.
Q. Oh, that was the other day, Mr. Kagney rode down to
the courthouse,
a couple of days ago, and it was authorized by Judge Kogan?
MS. COHAN: Mr. Kagney?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes. One of your secretaries --
THE WITNESS: That's what counter-intelligence is all
about.
BY MR .WILLIAMS:
Q. How was the six hundred dollar figure determined,
do you know?
A. I don't.
Q. Do you expect to receive any more money from the
State, as you sit
here?
A. As a witness fee?
Q. From any source, for any reason?
-------------------------
PAGE 34
A. Yes. As a witness fee.
Q. How much more?
A. What?
Q. How much more?
A. I don't know.
Q. Who is going to determine that?
A. The State.
Q. Who, specifically, on behalf of the State?
A. Janet Reno, Rina Cohan or, I don=t know how the
administrative parties
run. I don't know anything about it.
Q. When will that be determined?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you expect any more money within the next thirty
days?
A. I hope so.
Q. Is it your understanding with the State, that you
are going to be
paid on a periodic basis, until this case has been
completed?
A. Yes.
Q. With whom did you negotiate those
arrangements?
A. What arrangements?
Q. For periodic payment, until the case is completed?
----------------------
PAGE 35
A. I have not --
Q. I asked you a moment ago, if it was your
understanding that you
were to be paid on a periodic basis.
A. Well, any kind of negotiations will be between Rina
Cohan and myself,
since she is the State representative of --
Q. Then, to the extend that you have expectations that
you are going
to be paid periodically, those expectations are based upon
conversations
that you had with Ms. Cohan?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the frequency with which you expect to be
paid in
the future?
A. I don't know the frequency.
Q. Has there been any conversation about that?
A. About the frequency?
Q. Yes.
A. No. Because otherwise, I would give you an answer.
Q. Do you know the amount?
A. No.
Q. Has the amount not been determined?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. To your understanding, who is the
person or
----------------------
PAGE 36
who are the persons, if there are more than one, who
will eventually
determine the amount of money that you are to be paid?
A. I don't know.
I believe it's Rina, the one who might -- if she has
got somebody else
on top of her, that, I don't know.
Q. So as far as you are concerned, though, it is not
Ms. Cohan?
A. What?
Q. As far as you are concerned, it is not Ms. Cohan?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you, as of today, sought any kind of
employment from anybody,
any person, any firm, business, corporation, governmental
agency?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or, anything else?
A. No, sir.
Q. Since leaving the Marshals program?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, whom did you seek employment, since leaving
the Marshals program?
A. With anybody. Nobody.
Q. No. you answered my question in the affirm-
---------------------------
PAGE 37
ative, which indicated that you had sought employment
someplace since leaving
the Marshals program.
A. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
I applied several places in the State of New York. And
nothing came
through.
Q. Since leaving the Marshals
program?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind of position did you apply for?
A. Gas station attendant. I have no skills
except one.
Q. What is that one?
A. Intelligence.
Q. With whom did you make the application for the
position as gas station
attendant, Mr. Morales?
A. One of those -- you see, you sit behind the bullet
proof office,
and they have those self serve pumps, and then, you --
Q. Who is the person?
A. It was not a person. It was just a place that
they had AHelp
wanted@. And, I went down there and talked to the guy.
Q. Up in New York?
A. Up in New York. It was a very risky
position.
Q. You cannot be too careful these days.
---------------------------
PAGE 38
A. Especially up there.
Q. Apart from that attempted venture in the petroleum
industry, have
you applied anyplace else for any kind of employment, since
leaving the Marshals
program?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, what are you going to do, Mr. Morales?
Are you going to go to work someplace or, are you going to
wait and see what
happens?
A. I want to get it over with, your trial.
Q. You want to get that out of the way, before you do
anything?
A. Of course. I have to.
Q. You talk about my trial.
You mean the case in which Mr. Quesada and the others
were charged?
A. The Tic-Toc [TICK-TALKS] affair.
Q. For as long as the case is pending, then, you have
no intention
of doing anything else. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. How are you going to live? What kind of
money?
A. What?
Q. What kind of money are you going to live on;
-----------------
PAGE 39
what you get from the State?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. What are you going to do to provide yourself
with food and
clothing and shelter?
A. I have somebody who is providing me with food
and board.
Q. Do you think that you could go on for an indefinite
period of time?
A. Yes.
Q. Without having any source of income at all?
A. Yes.
Q. So that might be your intention?
A. That is my intention. That's what I am doing
exactly, right
now. That is what I have been doing for the past time,
since I arrived
here in Miami.
Q. Except for what you received from the State?
A. That's right.
Q. And so far as you know, whatever you are
going to get from
the State is going to continue until this case is over
with?
A. I believe so.
By the way, I threw away the check that you gave me.
Q. All right. Let's go back to the time before
------------------------
PAGE 40
you entered the Marshals program.
Prior to that time, what was your most recent employment?
A. Venezuela government.
Q. At the time you left the employee of the
Venezuela government,
in 1978, how much were you getting paid by the Venezuela
government?
A. Oh, I was making forty thousand a year.
Q. American or Venezuelan?
A. American.
It's conversions. I mean, I was being paid in Venezuelan
currency.
Q. No. But I asked you the equivalents. That is
what I wanted
to know.
A. Yeah. The equivalence, forty thousand a year.
Plus expenses, and the privilege that went along with my
position, there,
with regard to my intelligence.
Q. For who?
A. And for myself, for the Venezuela government.
(Thereupon, a brief discussion was held off the record.)
THE WITNESS: If I want to know what is in the record
for the last five
minutes, can I --
-------------------
PAGE 41
MR. WILLIAMS: If it pertains to an answer to a
question that you gave.
THE WITNESS: And, it pertains to your interrogatory
remarks about the
Venezuela government and yourself.
MS. COHEN: May we avoid all further gratuitous
arguments by the parties?
THE WITNESS: I don't have to take insults from him.
BY MR. WILLIAMS:
Q. Would you feel insulted if somebody called you a
dope dealer?
A. Not when I was a dope dealer. Because I was
not a dope dealer
at that time.
Q. Would you feel insulted if somebody called you a
killer or a gunman?
A. Yes.
Q. Because you never have done that?
A. Because I'm not a killer or a gunman.
Q. You certainly have killed people.
A. Have you ever seen me kill anybody?
Q. Okay.
A. Don't insult me.
Q. Would you feel insulted if somebody called
you a killer?
----------------------
PAGE 42
A. Yes. Because I'm not a killer.
Q. So to be called a drug dealer, would not insult
you, because --
A. Because I admit that I was a drug dealer.
Q. While you were in the employ of the Venezuela
government, was your
salary always forty thousand dollars?
A. No.
Q. Or, did it increase gradually?
A. It was increasing, you know, the way I
started there.
I started between -- let's see. Seventeen, eighteen
thousand, you know.
And finally, made it up to forty thousand.
Q. While you were in the employ of the Venezuela
government, Mr. Morales,
did you maintain any kind of a bank account, either in
Venezuela in
the United States, a savings account?
A. No.
Q. Did you save any money?
A. I spent it.
Q. What was the nature of the incident or situation,
that gave rise
to your departure from Venezuela in 1978?
A. Oh, I have an incident with one of my
immediate superiors.
It was a commisor general.
---------------------
PAGE 43
Tell me about it.
A. Orlando Garcia Vasquez.
Q. Tell us about it.
A. He was a commissor general. And, we have a
very nasty argument
one night. And, he was completely drunk.
And he was aggressive
and he was -- he tried to pull his pistol out of his
belt. And
he was so drunk, you know, he crashed against the
floor.
And I said, AWell, this guy, you know, is real
dangerous. You know.
He's my superior officer. And, we have been
friends. And he
has come to the point where, you know, he is doing to me
what he used to
do to everybody there.
And, so I decided that that was the end of it.
Q. What did you have the argument over?
What was the argument
about?
A. Oh, the argument was about so many things
concerning the DISIP,
concerning himself, concerning his mistresses, concerning
his wife, concerning
his livelihood. And, the fact that I was still a
commissor, but I have
no -- I have been taken off of my command of the division.
Q. Why did that happen?
A. What?
------------------------
PAGE 44
Q. Why did that happen?
A. Because I was exposed to the press over there, in
such a way that
they decided to give me some vacation. And when
I returned, I
just happened that they had named somebody else there.
And, I was being kept in an advisory situation, with a G.I.,
which I did.
And out of the blue sky, they just start denying my presence
there.
And, everytime that the newspapers were coming up with my
name, and they
will push me out of the country. And he was
leaving the
joke that I was the man that never was.
Q. What were the newspapers saying about you?
A. That I was a CIA agent.
Q. And, that is the kind of exposure you were talking
about?
A. Oh, yes.
There were spreads in the paper about me being a CIA
agent, FBI, or
whatever. You know. And for American
intelligence and all kinds
of things. Venezuela is a very confusing country with
regard to the
press.
Q. In other words, the press, in effect, accused you
of being a spy
for the American government?
A. Yes. Among other things.
---------------------
PAGE 45
Q. What else did they say about you?
I mean, they could not say anything worse; could they?
A. That was the extend of it.
Q. Did they accuse you of anything else?
A. Well, afterward, they accused me of being a drug
dealer, when I
was arrested in April, 1976 -- in '78, I mean. Excuse
me.
Q. Well, that was after you came back here, though?
A. Right.
But that was three months after I left Venezuela.
Q. Were you?
A. When?
Q. While you were in Venezuela.
A. What?
Q. A spy or an agent for the CIA or any other branch
of the American
government?
A. That's propaganda. That is propaganda.
This is innuendos,
characterization, and yellow press. And, you know,
things that were
not something shaded.
Q. Were you performing any kind of service at all, of
an information
gathering sort for any agency of the United States, while
you were in Venezuela?
-------------------------------
PAGE 46
A. Oh, we have what we called cooperation among
friendly services.
So there was information exchanged.
Q. Here's my question to you, Mr. Morales.
A. That's my answer to you, Mr. Williams. Let me
finish for Christ
sake.
Q. Now, please, Ricky.
A. Please, do. What excitement. At least let me
finish. Okay?
Q. Go ahead.
A. Go ahead.
Q. Were you finished?
A. Yes. I am finished.
Q. Good.
The question is, whether while you were in the employ of the
government of
Venezuela you were at the same time, specifically performing
any information
gathering function for any agency of the government of the
United States;
yes or no?
A. I cannot answer that question in a yes or no
manner.
Because it is what I mentioned to you before -- the
cooperation among friendly
services. That we provide information, and we receive
information from
the friendly services, that were in friendly terms with our
-------------------------------
PAGE 47
work on service.
Q. Were you giving any information to the government
of the United
States or any other government that --
A. Yes.
Q. --that you were not specifically authorized or
instructed to give?
A. No.
Q. By the Venezuela government?
A. No. NO. Nothing specific.
I have to clear up first -- I have the chain of command,
there.
Q. Well, we certainly would not want to violate that;
would we?
I mean, somethings are secret after all.
A. Of course. You never violate the chain of
command.
Q. So you had a falling out with your superior
officer?
A. One of my superior officers. One lf my
commanding officers.
Q. Of the things that were written about you in the
press. Is
that essentially what it comes down to.
A. That's part of the -- in general.
Q. But were there any other complaints that he
-------------------------------
PAGE 48
made or accusations that he made against you?
A. No. It was personal things between him and
myself.
Q. Give us a general idea, so we will know whether we
need inquiry
or not.
What kind of personal things?
A. The association with the FBI representative and the
Cuban Embassy.
Q. I gather that what you are saying is, that he had
such associations
and you disapproved of them?
A. I came up to the point that I realized that he was
doubling with
them.
Q. Well, that probably would be a violation of the
laws of the Republic
of Venezuela, wouldn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he have them arrested?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you have them arrested?
A. What?
Q. Did you have them arrested?
A. How come? He pulled a gun on me. And I
confronted with
certain things about it.
Q. This was during that night when he was drunk?
A. Yes.
I never wait until, you know, for the hangover.
-------------------------------
PAGE 49
Q. Did you have arrest authority, while you were --
A. Of course I have arrest powers.
Q. While you were working for the government of
Venezuela?
A. Yes.
Q. But I understand it, you did not arrest him and
charge him with
any kind of espionage or activities against the interest of
the country of
Venezuela did you?
A. No.
Q. To your knowledge, has the fellow since then, been
charged with
anything?
A. I know that he is being investigated. But no
charged.
Q. Well, you and I both know that being investigated
by something does
not mean anything.
I mean, if anybody in the world knows that, you do; right?
A. Right.
Q. While you were in the employ of Republic of
Venezuela, did you at
any time have any income of any
-------------------------------
PAGE 50
sort, from any other source, whether it was legal or
illegal?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. Tell me what I is you do not understand, and I will
try to work
it out.
A. What source? What do you mean by a source?
Independent source?
Q. Any?
A. Independent source?
Q. I said, any source.
A. What do you mean by any source?
Q. From any place?
A. From any place, besides the Venezuela --
Q. Besides the government of Venezuela.
A. There was a time that I was being paid by the
Venezuela government
and by the FBI at the same time.
Q. That was shortly after your arrival in Venezuela?
A. Yes. It's a matter o public record.
Q. I have been trying to remember, by the way, Ricky,
and I have not
been able to, what was the name of the fellow who at the
time was an older
guy with the Bureau, who was kind of your liaison down here?
A. It was my case officer.
Q. What was his name?
-------------------------------
PAGE 51
A. George Davis.
Q. He is not with the Bureau any more; is he?
A. He's retired.
Q. During what period of time was it that you were
getting paid both,
by the Venezuela government and the FBI?
A. 1974 up to -- I was paid by the FBI up to July
31st, 1975.
Is when I resigned my position as a paid informant with
them.
Q. We will go back to that in a minute.
After that time or including that time, for as long as you
were in the employ
of the government of Venezuela in any capacity, were you
receiving or, did
you receive any other income from any other source of any
kind, whether illegal
or legal?
A. No.
Q. While you were living in Venezuela was your
residence in Caracas?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it part of your job to travel?
A. Yes.
Q. How frequently did you travel on an average?
A. All depends on the assignments.
Q. Did it continue to be a part of your responsibility
to travel, after
you became the commissor
-------------------------------
PAGE 52
or the chief?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you still doing case work as the chief or the
superior or whatever
it is, were you still handling specific cases or
investigations?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Did you keep some kind of a log or record of the
places to which
you traveled?
A. No. But I know where I went.
Q. If I asked you to recount the various places to
which you traveled
while in the employ of the Venezuela, do you think you could
touch all?
A. I can come up with a fair description of the places
that I visited.
Q. Give me your best recollection, if you can.
Do a list.
A. Because the logs that you mentioned, you know, when
I have to return,
I have to write up my records an things like that.
Which are the property
of the Venezuela government.
Q. You did not keep any of that stuff; did you?
A. For myself, I never -- never in my life. I
never get copies
for myself.
Q. Always travel light?
A. Of course. Everything is in my memory.
-------------------------------
PAGE 53
Q. Absolutely.
Give me as full a list as you can of the traveling that you
did while you
were working for the Venezuela government.
A. Ecuador, Guatemala, Colombia, Spain, England,
Austria, Germany,
Sweden, Mexico, United States, Costa Rica, Panama.
Q. Is that about it?
A. Roughly.
Q. I assume that when you traveled, once you were in a
supervisory
position, that you at least took some people along with you?
A. I always have an immediate superior with me.
Q. Was that true while you were a case worker as an
inspector?
A. Yes.
Q. What other ranks did you hold?
A. The three that I mentioned to you before, the
coordination, the
inspector and the commissor.
Q. What other ranks in DISIP, did you hold, besides
inspector and commissor?
A. That's it.
Q. You went from inspector to --
A. To commissor.
-------------------------------
PAGE 54
Q. When you traveled to the European continent, you
were traveling
on a Venezuela passport?
A. Of course.
Q. Did you have diplomatic status?
A. No.
Q. How did you come to get the job with the
Venezuelans, to begin with?
A. I had contact with the Belgian Congo.
Q. Did he recruit you or somebody that you knew
personally before that?
A. Oh, I knew him.
Q. Tell me how it came to pass that you god the job.
A. Well, because I recruit for the U.S. intelligence
agency.
Q. So you kind of went to him at one point and said
ANow, it's your
turn?
A. No. He was --
Q. How did you come to get the position in Venezuela?
A. He gave it to me. He's the one who took me
down there.
He's the one who introduced me. He's the one that gave
me the opportunity.
He's the one that gave me the opportunity for training in
advancement, and
to developments my line of job, my profession.
-------------------------------
PAGE 55
Q. Was he, at the time, either directly or indirectly
providing information
or any kind of assistance or service to the CIA or any other
United States
governmental agency?
A. Yes.
Q. So that I was kind of like in effect, using him to
put you in place
as cover. Is that it?
A. Cover for what?
Q. Anything.
A. That's not the word. That's not the
sense. You are mistaking
it completely.
Q. It would not be the first time.
How had he been, in anyway at all, affiliated with the CIA,
when you went
to work for him in Venezuela?
A. He was recruited in 1973.
Q. Only about a year, when you went back down to
Venezuela?
A. I was traveling back and forth, since 1972.
Q. No.
When you went down to work.
A. On an official capacity?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes. And that was in November, 1974.
Q. Did you have to make any disclosures to anyone in
the Venezuela
government at all, about any of your
-------------------------------
PAGE 56
prior tests or any of your background, in order to get the
position with
DISIP?
A. That was Orlando Garcia Vasquez's job.
Q. Very neat.
A. Very neat. He was my superior officer.
Q. Did you in fact, make any disclosures to him?
A. My whole life.
Q. Was it necessary?
A. I'm public person.
Q. I know. We all are really.
A. But I am more than you.
Q. No question about that.
Did you make disclosures to him about prior associations or
affiliations
that you had with any intelligence service for any other
country?
A. As specifically, the United States?
Q. Any?
A. Of course.
Q. Tell me what you told him.
A. That I was working for the FBI. And, that I
have worked for
the CIA. And, that I have worked for the DEA.
And, at one point in his life, he was also recruited in the
early sixties,
for the CIA in the Miami area.
-------------------------------
PAGE 57
Q. What else did you tell him about any other work
that you did for
any other government or the information gathering of
any other government?
A. Well, I didn't have to tell him, you know, the
exact nature of my
job. Because it was prejudiced.
So the only thing we need to know is my association with
whatever, intelligence
or law enforcement agency I have been associated with -- I
have done work
for them or been paid by.
Q. What other governments have you worked for or been
paid by, besides
the United States and Venezuela?
A. The Cuban government.
Q. Go on.
A. What?
Q. Go on.
A. The Cuban government in 1959 and 1960.
Q. What else?
A. That's it.
Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that at no time in the
past have you
ever worked for or been paid money by any other government ,
regardless of
the level, through which the payment came, which is to say,
at the federal
level or at some lower level of the government, you have
either worked for
non been paid money by another government to do anything or
not do to anything,
except the
-------------------------------
PAGE 58
United States, Venezuela, and Cuba. Is that your
testimony?
A. That's correct, sir.
Q. Well, there was a period of time when you were on
the African continent;
wasn't there?
A. That's correct.
Q. When was that?
A. 1964.
Q. Specifically, where?
A. [LINE BLANK IN ORIGINAL]
Q. What were you doing there?
A. I was on a mission.
Q. What were you doing there?
A. Fighting a war.
Q. What war?
A. The Congelese [CONGOLESE] war. You
never heard of it?
Q. Were you a soldier in the army?
A. What?
Q. Were you a soldier in an army?
A. No. I belonged to Einzadze Gruppen.
Q. Spell that, please.
A. That is a special force team.
Q. Spell it so the reporter can get it.
A. Special Force team. That is a German word for
>Our team@.
Q. How do you spell it?
-------------------------------
PAGE 59
E-I-N-A-D-Z-E G-R-U-P-P-E-N.
Q. How does that translate?
A. Special force, hard core, a team. There are
so many names
that you can go by it.
Q. Of what government or army was the Einzadze Gruppen
a part?
A. We were attached to the five mercenary
brigade. The Wild Geese.
Q. Of what?
I mean, the Belgian Congo or --
A. The five mercenary brigade. The Wild geese.
Q. A private mercenary organization, that did not have
any governmental
affiliation. Is that correct?
A. We were fighting against the communists on
behalf of the Congelese[CONGOLESE]
government, who was being beseiged, and trying to be
overthrown by government
forces.
Q. What group?
Q. The one you just told us you belonged to?
A. My group?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
My group -- we worked CIA.
-------------------------------
PAGE 60
Q. At the same time that you were working for the CIA,
were you also
on the service employed by some other government or, was
this group strictly
a mercenary group?
A. What group?
Q. The group that you were in.
A. My group?
Q. Yes
A. We were contact agents for the CIA. And, we
were attached
to the five mercenary brigade. The Wild Geese.
Q. Under whose direction or control was the five
mercenary brigade?
A. The five mercenary brigade?
Q. Yes.
A. Colonel Mike Horg [HOARE]. It's the truth.
Q. Was the Colonel Horg [HOARE] under contact with the
Congelese[CONGOLESE]
or --
A. That, I don't know.
Then, the group to which you belonged, so far as you could
determine, was
strictly a mercenary group, without any official
governmental affiliation.
Is that correct?
A. Which group?
Q. The one that we have been talking about; the
-------------------------------
PAGE 61
five mercenary brigade.
A. No.
That day, they were under the command of the Congelese
[CONGOLESE] government.
Q. They were?
A. Of course they were. It was an unorganized
force that was
fit to --
Q. Then, you were on the one hand, attached to an
organization that
was a formal or official arm of the Congelese [CONGOLESE]
government.
And at the same time, a contract agent for the CIA. Is
that correct?
A. Roughly.
Q. Tell me how it is incorrect.
A. It is incorrect, because we didn=t belong to the
five mercenary
brigade. And we were not part of the Congelese
[CONGOLESE] government.
We were an elite unit from the Central Intelligence Agency
that were attached
to the five mercenary brigade. And, we used the cover
of being mercenaries,
because you don=t go around telling me that you belong to
the CIA.
Q. Everybody else does?
A. The ones that do not belong to the CIA.
Q. Has there been any other occasion when you have
been performing
any information gathering or military
-------------------------------
PAGE 62
or paramilitary service of any sort, in any other country,
besides the United
States, Venezuela, Cuba, and what was then, the Belgian
Congo?
A. Everytime that I travel to the countries that I
mentioned to you
before, I was on duty.
Q. All right. I will rephrase the question.
Has there been any other occasion when you or appeared to
have been ,attached
to some arm or agency of some government for the purpose of
either information
gathering or any military or paramilitary work, aside from
Cuba, the United
States, Venezuela, and the Belgian Congo?
A. I never worked for the Belgians. And I never
worked for the
Congelese government.
Q. Listen to my question.
Has there ever been any other occasion when either you were
attached or,
you appeared to be attached, to any other agency or arm of
any other government,
aside from those four?
A. No, sir.
Q. So those are the only four instances. Is that
correct?
A. The ones that I already answered to you.
Q. By the way, while you were in the Belgian Congo,
you did not kill
anybody then; did you?
-------------------------------
PAGE 63
A. I survived that war. And I never let, you
know, the enemy
to kill me.
Q. Is that a yes or a no?
A. So there was a lot of casualties, there.
Q. Is this a yes or a no?
Nobody is going to prosecute you for that.
A. But I disagree with the word kill. You don't
kill.
Q. No, I do not. Except for an occasional ant or --
A. I'm not telling you --
Q. Or some other kind of verment or bug.
A. That does not apply.
It is when you take -- you remove physically, your
enemies. Your enemy
soldiers.
Q. Well, what word would you like better that kill,
Ricky, to describe
the process by
which --
A. They just -- it's a military response.
They suffer casualties.
Q. Listen to my question.
Tell me what word you would prefer to use to kill, when you
describe the
process of caution -- the discontinuation of life of a --
A. Inflicting casualties to the enemy.
Q. Okay. Understanding the term, inflicting
-------------------------------
PAGE 64
casualties to the enemy, to be your choice for a synomon to
the word kill,
did you inflict any casualties to the enemy in the Belgian
Congo?
A. Of course. There was a big war going on
there. And a
lot of shootings back and forth.
They inflict casualties on us, and we inflict casualties to
them.
They inflict casualties on us, and we inflict casualties to
them.
The only thing is, our casualties were bigger that theirs,
so we won.
Like any other war.
Q. War is hell; isn't it , Ricky?
A. I love it.
MR. WILLIAMS: It is about four o'clock on Friday. I am
inclined to
recess for the day.
(Thereupon, the deposition was recessed.)
(Thereupon, formalities were not waived.)
__________________________
RICARDO MORALES NAVARENE
-------------------------------
PAGE 65
CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA
SS
COUNTY OF DADE
I, MARY JANE GRANT, Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public for
the State of
Florida at Large, do hereby certify that I was authorized to
report the deposition
of RICARDO MORALES NAVAREHE [NAVARETTE], a witness herein;
that said witness
was duly sworn, and that the foregoing pages numbered one
through sixty four
constitute a true record of the deposition given by
said witness.
Dated at Miami, Dade County, Florida, this 15 day of April,
1982.
_____________________
COURT REPORTER
go back to part 1A
go forward to
part II
End of Page
Copyright
1998-2014 Cuban Information Archives. All Rights
Reserved.
