DOCUMENT  0027-4

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TAPE 4 of 8

7/9 DECEMBER 1995

NASSAU Tape #4

This tape starts with a statement in progress..........

Q: That this story is largely if not completely false. The purpose of this story was to implicate Havana
in the assassination. I may retract one hypothesis I had which was that the story was invented entirely
after the publication of the Warren Commission. It appears now there are indicators that this story
may have, in fact, been put together earlier. As early as the days just following the assassination. I
don't think this changes the hypothesis, it only adds strength to it. It is clear to me that most of the
individuals from whom the pieces of information actually come, are mostly local leftists. We also know
that the person who handled the leftist files in Mexico City was, in fact, DAVID PHILLIPS. It is also
clear from reading the LOPEZ report, that when E. LOPEZ interviewed DAVID PHILLIPS, that
DAVID PHILLIPS lied about his knowledge about the so-called OSWALD-DURAN affair., in the
beginning feigning ignorance of all of the documents in possession of the Mexico City CIA station.
Only after E. LOPEZ showed him these documents one by one, did DAVID Phillips begin to
acknowledge knowledge of these documents. I have spoken this morning , as one or two of you have
here, with CARLOS LECHUGA about the story, which I published, of the allegations of a sexual
liaison between himself and Silvia DURAN. Which she, for the first time in an interview with Tony
Summers recently spoke on affirming that such an affair had taken place. What lead me to the story
was a documentary basis. In the first instance CIA documents, that they were related to FBI
documents from late 1962. I don't recall the date right now, but I am going to guess, November or
December 1962. It is very interesting to me that, if this is not true.... and CARLOS LECHUGA denies
this story. What we face here is either a person somewhere in intelligence, because the FBI
documents make reference to very sensitive channels. Some source in US intelligence as early as late
1962 putting false information into the intelligence channel or perhaps at a time after the
assassination fully false documents into the record. So I am very intrigued at this situation. So I don't
pretend to have the answers, but in light of what CARLOS LECHUGA said....the first words spoken
by Silvia DURAN to Summers in the interview when he brought up this subject now ring in my ears.
When Tony said, asked her about the alleged affair and mentioned that there were documents, her
first words were, and correct me if I am wrong, "Oh, that's top secret."

Summers: I would just like to say here. I gather that my colleague John Newman has mentioned it to
you, not in the conference. I would have hesitated to ask you about it in such a wide forum. If this is
your private life and something you don't want to discuss openly in this forum, please say so, because
it seems to me a private matter.

Lechuga: I have no objection about that.

Summers: Well then, fine.

Lechuga: He approached me.

Summers: Right.. Then the extraordinary thing to me then is that just last year in 1994 when I asked
her about this. And by this time I was, back up for a moment. I think I was the first journalist from
America or Europe to sit down for any great length with Silvia DURAN back in 1978. and came to
know her pretty well then and revisited her in 1993. And spent a lot of time with her again then. At
that time I asked her about the story cited by ELENA GARRO that Oswald had been at the twist
party held at DURAN'S house, and that she, DURAN, had slept with Oswald. And she just laughed a
lot and thought it very funny and said, "No of course. If you had seen him, you think I would sleep
with such a weedy little man, Oswald. Certainly not. And anyway I was married at the time." She
rejected the story completely. When, by 1993, I had now heard of the suggestion that she had had an
affair with you, sir, I put it to her on the phone and there was silence and she said, "Oh, that is
supposed to be top secret. But since it is now in the documents that have been released, I guess I can
refer to it. "And she said this was a very serious affair with you and that she had hoped that she would
be able to join you. And that if you were going to be permanently in New York, she would have gone to
New York and even married you. I mean, and as a Christmas present to you, I will send you a tape of
her interview. But this means nothing to you?

Lechuga: (Lots of laughter from ESCALANTE, NUNEZ and LECHUGA) You have the tape here?

Summers: No, not here. But I will send it to you for Christmas. (Lots of laughter again) But, you knew

Lechuga: Of course, she worked in the consulate.

Smith: But not in the biblical sense.

Lechuga: She worked in the consulate of Cuba in Mexico. I seldom saw her because of two different

Summers: Yes I know

Lechuga: In the garden of the embassy, the patio of the embassy.

Summers: Do you people have any reason to suppose that Silvia DURAN, looking back, that Silvia
DURAN may have been involved in any way with US intelligence?

Lechuga: No.

Summers: So it's a mystery.

Lechuga: Yes.

?____________: The impression that I got from the researchers was that they had strong suspicions
that DURAN was , in fact, involved with US intelligence. And I have here a little paragraph I would
like you to read while they were interviewing DAVID PHILLIPS. It's interesting in terms of his
non-responses about, how vague he gets. Mr. PHILLIPS says that he first heard the name of Silvia
DURAN about the time he arrived in Mexico, as soon as he started reading the telephone taps
transcripts. "Her name appeared time and time again." He added, "We had no interest in her. She
wasn't friendly with anyone." Mr. PHILLIPS had previously mentioned in his discussion of the Cuban
shop's interest in recruiting agents, the name of Ambassador Lechuga and their interest in pitching,
recruiting, enticing him. Mr. PHILLIPS was shown Slawson's memo concerning his trip to Mexico
where Scott told him that the CIA had a substantial prior interest in DURAN because of her affair
with Lechuga.

Lechuga: Who told that?

?____________: Win Scott. Station chief. That may be where it started. PHILLIPS seemed surprised
and said, "No one let me in on this operation." Mr. PHILLIPS said that "it is possible that the agency
pitched DURAN". This was the guy that was in charge. "At one time we pitched almost everyone at
the Cuban embassy. She must have been considered. Mr. PHILLIPS said that it was possible that she
was not pitched because the station could not identify any of her weaknesses. At this point Mr.
PHILLIPS was told about LITAMEL/Nine report on DURAN that said that all that would have been
done to recruit her was to get a blond haired blue eyed American in bed with the little ??????. Mr.
PHILLIPS admitted that it sounded like she had at least been targeted and that the station interest
was substantial and the weakness and means had been identified. He pointed out, however, that
targeting does not necessarily mean that she had been pitched, enticed. Even if she had been pitched,
that she had accepted. Mr. PHILLIPS stated that Miss DURAN'S 201 file should be very thick. He
stated that a thin 201 file prior to the assassination would be very surprising. And I think at that time,
her file, at least what the CIA turned over to the committee, had three documents in it. I thought that
would be interesting to hear.

?____________: That's the passage I was referring to just a minute ago. And if you go on reading, you
will see Mr. PHILLIPS gradually beginning to agree with EDDIE LOPEZ, piece by piece. And the
question in my mind is how DAVID PHILLIPS, if he in fact was head of Cuban operations in Mexico
City, would not have had access to this material. It makes no sense to me. So it looks to me like
PHILLIPS was playing along with Eddie Lopez. But let's be clear about one thing. This story was very
important. I am talking , not about the Lechuga piece, but about the OSWALD-DURAN piece.

?____________: Which is also corroborated by LI/Nine.

?____________: Right. For years after the assassination, this story grew and grew and grew. It
involved people, very interesting people, including a career foreign service officer. Mr. CHARLES
THOMAS, who became part of the story then in 1964 and 1965. Then again in 1969, writing directly
to the Secretary of State about it. Given the magnitude of the story and all the people involved in it,
and apparently it is false. The whole subject of Duran's extra-marital activities, I think deserves close
attention. And if there was no affair between Mr. Lechuga and DURAN, it gives us, for the first time,
a crucial distinction between , on the one hand, an affair or a piece of disinformation created after the
assassination, and on the other hand a piece of disinformation created before the assassination. To
wit, a document, an FBI document, a CIA document about this in 1962. Anyway, I think that I am
sufficiently interested now in this to say that this should be looked at more closely.

?____________: Is that the CHARLIE THOMAS who committed suicide?

?____________: Yes it is.

Summers: Before we leave this business of amour, I am really, I would not have discussed this
incident in this forum, but I was planning to ask you about it sir. I am so surprised that there's nothing
to it, because there was just a pause on the telephone with a man, me, who she had met over the years
and talked to over the years often. And she paused for one, two three, that long. And then she said,
"Oh, I thought that was still very secret, but since it's out....". She talked as if she loved you then and
she loves you now. I'm sorry.

Lechuga: I don't know why she told you that. It is a mystery. It has nothing to do with the whole
thing....the embassy in Mexico.

Summers: Except that it's not a true story.

?____________: It's clear that in the files, these documents, the FBI documents and the CIA
documents, were being looked at about the DURAN Lechuga affair, were being examined because of
the light they might shed on the DURAN Oswald affair. That in the minds of the investigators, this
was the relevance of these documents. That's why we have them today.

?____________: The only relevance could be that the story was that if OSWALD is send by the CIA
to meet with Silvia and DURAN at the Cuban embassy and there is this story about you and DURAN
at the same that you are starting this overture with the Kennedy administration. You can see how
people might want to mix these things up.

Escalante: In the first place, let me make clear that Mr. Lechuga in 1962 up to the days of the missile
crisis, at which point he was called by Premier Fidel Castro to be his representative at the United
Nations. So he was present and participated in the conversations that happened in Cuba during the
missile crisis. Then he went back to the United States and he stayed there until after the Kennedy
assassination. AS you heard this morning, his versions of those conversations. Really, this stuff about
Silvia Duran's relations really surprises us. It is outside the context of this meeting. As you said, the

Lechuga: Really, this is all an invention. In this book it says that this story of Silvia DURAN is made
to separate me from my wife. I was with my wife in Mexico. This affair was for me to have a divorce
from my wife. She says she was expecting me to divorce. The truth was that I was with my wife in
Mexico. From Mexico, I went to New York with my wife. And it was two years in New York with my
wife. Later on I went to Havana when I was appointed to the President of the National Culture Council
and my wife went with me to Havana. I was divorced to my wife in 1967, five years after that story she
had done. And for personal reasons that have nothing to do with politics or nothing. I think it is
something she invented. Anyway, It is very surprising that Silvia DURAN, in 1978....

Summers: In 1993.

Lechuga: ....In 1993, could say that, Yes, she had an affair with me. It doesn't match.

Summers: And I think what should concern us all is the question that if Silvia DURAN is still, even
today, suddenly inventing this, what else has she invented down the years?

Lechuga: On the other hand, it is very queer, because I think Silvia DURAN was, had a good position
here. She was arrested by the police in Mexico. She was tortured. And she refused to link Oswald
with Cuba. So she had a good attitude.

Summers: She told me that she wasn't tortured at all. That the police just sort of shook her about.

?____________: She told you that when she was in Mexico.

Summers: She was in Mexico. But also in her manuscript about this.

?____________: My interest is how close DAVID PHILLIPS is to the pieces of this story.

Smith: Fabian is, I think, uncomfortable with this. I take it that John had spoken with Carlos before
the meeting and otherwise, we wouldn't have. But I very much appreciate his willingness to discuss
this. And it is, in fact, very important point to clear up. Not because of personal at all, no one cares
about that. But because of SILVIA Duran's role in all of this. And I would suggest that we all look
again at the question whether or not she does have some U.S. intelligence, or some other motive here,
but I apologize to Carlos, I really do, and I appreciate his willingness to discuss this and it was an
important point to clarify, and that Carlos was willing.

Scott: I would like to come back solidly on the theme of DAVID PHILLIPS and of course, one of his
specialties is false stories And we have trouble picking our way thru all these things. It is interesting
worth remember , it came up briefly, the story of Alvarado the Nicaraguan in Mexico because it told
us not only that it was another false story to link Oswald and Cuba together to the assassination. It
was a story that was vigorously promoted at the time by DAVID PHILLIPS. And what we learned
also was that DAVID PHILLIPS was not alone here. And what was surprising in the documents is the
extent to which he was encouraged, the Alvarado story was actively promoted by the chief of station
Win Scott, and the Ambassador Thomas MANN. And when you come to Thomas MANN, he was both
a career State Department official, but also he was someone quite close to Lyndon Johnson, who
promoted him right after. And in particular, Thomas MANN served as interpreter when Lyndon
Johnson would meet on his ranch with ORTAS who graduated from being head of Cuba Nation to
being the President of Mexico. So we shouldn't just think of PHILLIPS as an individual. He was part
of a faction that included more important people. Including, particularly Thomas MANN, who had
announced in 1963 that he would retire from the foreign service and who became the Assistant
Secretary for all of Latin America. At the time of the coup in Brazil and many thru 1964., the Brazilian

Lechuga: He was an enemy of Cuba. He certainly was on the other hemisphere.

Smith: Well, he was, but on the other hand. I would fully agree. On the other hand. Thomas MANN
sent a memo before the Bay of Pigs saying it was illegal. It would be a violation of international law.
The memo did not get any support, so he dropped it and, in the final meeting, he voted for the Bay of
Pigs invasion also. He was very close to Lyndon Johnson. I wouldn't put Thomas MANN in the same
boat with DAVID PHILLIPS , but he was very conservative and certainly was no friend of Cuba. He
sent forward the memo not because he didn't want to do in the Cuban government, it was because he
felt this means was inappropriate.

Scott: It was Thomas MANN, in a cable, who told Washington that SILVIA DURAN should be
re-arrested in the light of the ALVARADO story and that she should be tortured and that they should
be told to break her. It is astonishing to me that this was in force.

?____________: We don't know to what extent MANN was being fed information by Scott.

Scott: But we do know that MANN signs the cable. In other words, It wasn't the CIA cable, it was an
Embassy cable.

?____________: My point is that he may have been manipulated by Scott in terms of believing that.

Scott: My point is that up to know, we have been talking about PHILLIPS as a sinister individual. And
we have to deal with a whole , right there in the Mexican Embassy, there was a very powerful,
manipulative... People who were trying to exploit the assassination in order to mount opposition to
Cuba. And it's really a question whether you, on your sides, have asked yourself about the role of Win
Scott and Thomas MANN and their connection to the Mexican government.

Lechuga: I don't have any information.

Summers: Coming back to disinformation, another thing that I think is new and definitely perhaps
interesting to those of you around the table who don't know and also our Cuban friends. One of the
stories told immediately after the assassination, was that OSWALD had met during his visit to
Mexico with the Cuban Ambassador. And that the Cuban Ambassador had dined with OSWALD,
taken him to a name restaurant. Like the ALVARADO story, this was designed to suggest that the
Cubans had been plotting something with OSWALD. The source, the main source of this story was a
character called SALVADOR DIAZ. And I think we know something about him. And this story was
repeated by a man who, is to this day, a prominent Cuban exile journalist writing, among other things,
for Excelsior, in Mexico City. His name is GUERRO.

Lechuga: (Acknowledges the name)

Summers: And I interviewed him in Mexico City two years ago to ask him about the origins of this
story and how he remembered it. And he is old now, but very fit, and he sat in his office surrounded by
his....It is one of those offices filled with plaques and pictures of himself with famous people, including
Nixon....And he told me his version of the story. And he said "Yes, the story was so and I believe it to
this day." And he says the story was told to him, and this is the sinister bit, about as early as
September, no October, early October.. The story about OSWALD meeting with the Cuban
Ambassador. In other words, this was not a post assassination story of opportunism, this was a story
told clearly for a purpose well, well before the assassination. And said he had named to me in turn the
sources that provided the story and I am afraid I cannot remember the name of these two other
sources. But one of them is the former Batista chief of police, who is now dead.

Lechuga: Orlando GUTIERREZ.

Summers: Cannot remember. I have it.....But this seems to me very significant because the story
about OSWALD was being told well before the assassination. And I believe the date could tell us that
the Assassinations Committee identified certainly, SALVADOR DIAZ as an agent of DAVID

?____________: We found that many disinformation stories stemmed from Phillips' assets.

?____________: There were many stories coming out of Miami about Oswald and demonstrations and
pro-Cuban groups in Miami. They put OSWALD in Miami and a number of different places, all with
pro-Castro groups.

TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: I had an awful time in this section with Arturo speaking so loud and Mirta
so softly. You will need to check it closely. sorry......

Rogers: I just wanted to speak now about the ?????. About a new conversation I had this morning
with John Newman. I was telling Newman that I was certain that all the information that was given up
in Mexico, in one way or another in implicating Cuba in the murder was disinformation. Some were
prepared before the murder and some after. The decision of the Warren Commission .........involved.
Some of the documents. According to my reading and different sources, my impression is that
disinformation was sent off by PHILLIPS at several directions. One was to discredit the witnesses. On
the other hand, blame Cuba for the assassination. The decision itself to arrest SILVIA DURAN, at
the following day after Kennedy's assassination allows that she was a crucial witness of OSWALD's
visit to the consulate. And Silvia's declaration of her police statements in Mexico were several times
modified. Several times. I think there are four or five different versions of her declarations. However,
we do not have any motive to doubt of Silvia's integrity. About things that have come on top of her,
that she was a Cuban agent, ex-agent, American agent. Logically, we can only say no - on the Cuban
side. To believe her, her own declarations could never be known before the parliamentary commission
in the United States. I think up to 1978, in which she was interviewed in Mexico, her declarations was
same as she gave to the Warren Commission. We also think that it was admitted by documents about
the declarations. It is an effort to try to discredit her. If she had an affair, but not with Oswald, but
Lechuga, etc. All of these persons who give this information were either CIA officials or CIA agents in
the CIA station in Mexico. The very same research in the US. The origin of this information about the
relations of SILVIA DURAN, I think was someone called JUNE COBB. But also, with this initial
......... Ambassador Thomas is unofficial second secretary at the embassy at November in the CIA and
so on. The person that is related to one disinformation....Why should we fall into a trap to pay
attention to this many disinformation? Is it to take us away from our main object ? Or take us away
from the truth, which is precisely what we are trying to get to. It is not true that OSWALD had plans
to kill Kennedy in the Cuban consulate. It is not true. Absolutely not true. Some of our officials have
been , I am sure........have been interviewed. Even Fidel Castro was questioned. Despite
disinformation we might have had, ...... That should tell you that the government itself if also ......There
are no records that .... Trying to discredit the witnesses at the Cuban consulate and blame our

?____________: When you went thru the files of the Cuban State council, it wasn't clear to me
whether you were saying there was no reference to the SOLO people or if there was no reference to
the statement that SOLO was recorded to have made about OSWALD.

Rogers: I am not a

Escalante: No interview with any director of the Communist Party shows up.

?____________: If OSWALD didn't threaten to kill Kennedy , what was it that made Azcue so angry
to throw OSWALD out of the embassy and say that he was a detriment to the revolution?

Escalante: There is an important detail we haven't taken into account. In the inspector general's
report on the CIA in 1967 there was some very important information. It was explaining the
AMLASH operation, which was CUBELA, as we know. It says that CUBELA came back on the first
day of the assassination and this report says that two days after the assassination, the CIA officer in
Mexico City sent a cable to the headquarters in Langley. It says that CUBELA showed up on a list of
Soviet agents in Mexico City. This seemed very strange to him too.

Scott: I think that technically, ANGLETON, inside the CIA, drew attention to the fact that CUBELA
had been a contact of KOSTIKOV. KOSTIKOV was supposed to be the agent who , in theory, had
met with OSWALD on September 28. John Newman and I don't believe in the credibility of that story.
We have seen the cable on which ANGLETON based his claim. They had KOSTIKOV under
continuous surveillance since he came to Mexico years before. And in an extraordinarily long list of
people he had seen, there was one contact with CUBELA in, I believe, 1960. About three years before
the assassination. So from our point of view, it was ridiculous. But that was what ANGLETON used as
a pretext to take over the control of the investigation of the Kennedy assassination.

Scott: I wanted to make a more general point, but if you want to respond on the

Escalante: CUBELA worked in Mexico from January to the first few days of 1961. CUBELA never
came back to Mexico. In the second place, during the 1961 trip to Mexico, that's when he was
recruited by the CIA. Carlos already explained who he was. An American case officer, a physical
description. He already told you. This is the man who matched DAVID PHILLIPS description. I
doesn't know if CUBELA was in the Soviet Embassy in 1961. But if he was there, then it would have
had to have been social or diplomatic activity. I don't know how KOSTIKOV could have been tied to
CUBELA. In reality they probably hardly knew each other or probably never met. Whoever it was
that received OSWALD at the Soviet Embassy, it definitely wasn't KOSTIKOV. It was probably P.
YAKOV. This cable that was sent from Mexico to Langley, it didn't have anything to do with
ANGLETON. It tied to CUBELA to CIA. And this same CUBELA was recruited by the CIA two
years before. Since CUBELA was in Paris on the day of the assassination receiving weapons or arms,
it seems really strange to me. There are other things, other connections perhaps. They are just made
up, something that Angleton just made up. Maybe one of ANGLETON'S own obsessions. There could
be other alternatives. We've analyzed these events because we are talking about the scene in
Mexico. We are saying that PHILLIPS could have deceived with disinformation . In other words, this
cable that had to do with the Cubans, PHILLIPS had to know about. It is probably more likely that he
just made it up.

Smith: PHILLIPS, as I think we all know, had been in charge of disinformation in Guatemala. During
the invasion, he was the one responsible for spreading the stories of the advance of the victorious
liberating army when, in fact, there wasn't any advance at all. And who took over the operation of the
radio. So this was his specialty and we would have to assume, even if we didn't know, that in Mexico.

?____________: The question that puzzles me is that, if you assume, and I think there is a fairly good
amount of evidence that PHILLIPS was involved in the disinformation in the Kennedy assassination,
one - is there any innocent explanation for that apart from involvement in the Kennedy assassination.
And two - since PHILLIPS is a disinformation specialist, that doesn't get you to shooting the
president. Is there any link whether PHILLIPS connections with the Army or with Special Forces, or
someone that could have carried out an assassination?

?____________: I want to jump in on this one. We've been drawing some distinctions here a couple of
times. I think Tony Summers brought up something, he's gone now. A piece that was
pre-assassination piece. And I find that more interesting than things that are definitely post
assassination information. But while we were talking here today, something that came to mind was my
interview with June COBB. And she was discussing the twist party and this was the beginning of the
story of OSWALD's extra-marital affairs. June COBB stayed with ELENA GARRO in the days after
the assassination and talked to her at length about this supposed party. And what JUNE COBB said
was that the people who were invited were predominantly left wing, local left wing people. And
ELENA GARRO was out of sorts and disgusted in that way. But the impression that was generated
by these events, was that the Cuban community in Mexico City was being organized for the purpose
of effecting OSWALD's escape after the assassination. Therefore further implicating the Cubans in
the story. And this story comes to us from a CIA informant, JUNE COBB. What I find interesting
about this is the nexus of OSWALD and ELENA GARRO and local left wing Cubans in Mexico City
before the assassination. So it would be an example of a story put together prior to November 22,
which, if it had followed through would have been very bad for Cuba.

?____________: One possibility is that if the cable linking CUBELA to KOSTIKOV is false, and
PHILLIPS generates it perhaps. If you look ahead a few years later to the Johnny ROSELLI story
that teams of Cubans were turned around. In other words, Castro supposedly did it by turning around
assassination teams sent in against Castro. I'm tired too, but do you see my point? If CUBELA is
falsely linked to the Soviets and as a double agent for Castro, the false stories kind of continue
through CUBELA's ties to the plot. Does that make sense?

Winslow: We brought up DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS and Swan Island. Now is it possible that David

Escalante: He did know MAS.

Winslow: He did?

?________: MAS worked directly for him.


Smith: The topic as we begin this morning is EXILES - a broad topic. And we will discuss Oswald in
Mexico in the second session this morning. We've already discussed this, but in a more specific point
this morning. For the afternoon we have scheduled a discussion of Cuban theories of Kennedy's
assassination. I will draw up a list of participants to distribute to all of you. Any questions or
comments on procedures? Let's begin.

Scott: For the record, I would like to go on past six.

Smith: At a given point, what we can do is state that the formal session is over, and anyone who wants
to stay can continue the conversations. This should be a very interesting discussion at this point. On
the exiles, on the agenda beginning from the US side. Do you know the real names of the two Cuban
exiles using the code names ANGEL and LEOPOLDO who visited SILVIA ODIO? From the Cuban
side: What information do US researchers have about the training camps near New Orleans? Some of
you have written about that. What about the New Orleans-Dallas-Miami gun running operation?
We've touched on that already. What connection does it have to the crime? Which figures in the
Florida exile community were most probably involved in the murder and why? And which exile
organizations seemed to operate independently from JM/WAVE? Let's go to the Cuban side first.

Escalante: For ANGEL and LEOPOLDO, we would like to develop some information according to our
judgment on Santiago, was running an operation of the CIA until 1962. He was informing the groups of
exiles in the United States about Kennedy administrations attempts to have dialog with Cuba. While
interrogating SANTIAGO in Cuba, we came up with some more interesting information. He was
arrested in 1964, March. A few months after the assassination. He explained that he had a
relationship with a CIA official, who was military intelligence - William BISHOP. He says that in
November of 1963, William BISHOP invited him to a meeting in Dallas. It was a meeting with a few
wealthy people in Dallas talking about financing an anti-Castro.

?____________: What was the date again?

Escalante: The first few days of November, 1963. He says that William Bishop picked him up in his
car in Miami and they drove to Dallas. They were there for about four days. This would had to have
happened the weekend before the assassination, according to what he says. They stayed in a second
class hotel. They stayed in a second class hotel. Bishop left several times to have interviews. But this
guy did not know who he was talking to. After approximately four days, they returned to Miami. After
the assassination, they were in Tallahassee, when he went to visit a new house for a new car. He
passed information ..

?____________: When did he say this?

Escalante: In March, 1964. When he was being interrogated.

?____________: Did he identify any of the wealthy people he met? Hunt?

Escalante: No. There is something else. I found his name in your book. That's where I went to look
him up. I didn't know who he was. He was arrested in March of 1964 when he tried to ram his boat in
Cuba with three others to perform acts of sabotage. There he had many conversations with us. He just
told us this of his own accord. We didn't ask questions. Our interest really were in the plan of
sabotage. Sabotage when and where. We wanted to know what was behind the sabotage and then he
started to talk about his subject. So then, that's why a decision was made to take down everything he
said. And that's why we have tapes. He talked about things not associated with the sabotage. There
were too many people, we didn't have the resources or tapes to take it. It was in his first declaration,
it was political information. He came to us for the first time to talk to us about September of 1962,
opening a communication with Cuba. And that was very important to tape all of his conversations
about Cuba.

?____________: But Felipe Vidal was not talking about dialog with Cuba. Quite the contrary.

Escalante: Oh no. He told us. As I read yesterday.

Scott: Two points. First, SANTIAGO was a major figure in Iran Contra.

Escalante: It is not the same person. He died in Cuba He was an official from the navy. In 1959, he
was in Cuba and Venezuela. In 1960, he went to Columbia, left Miami and he had a conversation with

Scott: I don't want to be a bore, but I keep a file on Cuban exiles.

Escalante: Maybe it is the son. The same name.

Scott: Well I was actually told that the father was killed and that this was the son. In 1981, I had a
phone call from Gerry Patrick Hemming. I did not solicit the call. And he told me quite a lot about
your man, the one that was killed. What interests me is that he said that his group in 1964 was FLN,
which I assume was ___________________. And that when he was arrested in Cuba, my notes says
that Charles Astin was the lawyer and sought belligerent status for SANTIAGO. And the other thing
is that Hemming drew my attention to him and I don't know why.

Escalante: I have read somewhere, I am not sure who the writer is. That some American publication,
that HEMMING later said that he was invited by some to a meeting that was to take place in Dallas
in November 1963, but that he did not go. And I read somewhere, at least I am telling you the
declarations that that meeting took place. I didn't ask him about his. Nobody asked him. Our cameras
were not on. He gave us political information we did not ask him. But nobody asked him.

?____________: I did not put in my book what Colonel Bishop told me about SANTIAGO, but we did
talk about it a great deal and he knew him very well.

Lesar: I can talk about HEMMING, who showed up in my office a few years ago. He mentioned the
meeting in Dallas with members of the Petroleum Club and he said that he had been at that meeting.
And that the talk was about that the problem was not in Cuba, the problem was in Washington.

?____________: HEMMING told me he was NOT at the meeting. That he was invited to go. He said
that he warned SANTIAGO not to go.

Winslow: HEMMING named his son after SANTIAGO.

Smith: He did.

Escalante: Felipe.

Winslow: You know he was married to a Cuban woman before that was killed in prison in Cuba.

Escalante: HEMMING?

Winslow: Her name? I don't know. I don't recall the name. I think she was killed in '59, early on. She
was put into a prison or something. He didn't go in to it.

Escalante: No woman died in a Cuban prison.

Nunez: I can speak for the women's movement in Cuba too. No woman died in prison.

Escalante: Yesterday I talked about a person - SIMO (Cesar). Like I explained yesterday, this
person was born in Mexico. He had Mexican features, coarse. He became a Cuban citizen in the
1950's and he studied engineering. In 1959 or 60 he affiliated himself with a group called Salvat. AS I
said, he was one of the people who frequently visited PHILLIPS' office in Havana. He asked for
asylum in 1960. And in his house they found a large cache of arms and explosives. I am sure that is
the reason he asked for asylum in the first place. Interestingly, in the same embassy he asked for
asylum at the same time was Ricardo Morales. After he left Cuba, he went to Mexico and after that
to Miami.

?____________: Ricardo MORALES was in the same asylum and same time?

Escalante: Same date and same embassy.

?____________: Interesting

Escalante: See, when several people seek asylum in the same embassy at the same time, you sort of
assume they are in cahoots with each other.. We had information that in 1963 Eusebio VORJA was
working for David Phillips in Mexico. That's the only information we have on Eusebio. The description
of Eusebio VORJA is the same as that given by Silvia ODIO.

?____________: Spell his whole name

Escalante: In the Cuban registry, he shows up under two names - ISIDRO and EUSEBIO. S-I-M-O.

?____________: Is there anything linking him to other Cuban exiles - Eladio del Valle, Masferrer?

Escalante: Eladio del Valle. No. I told you what we know. Felipe did have relations, but not Eusebio.

?____________: This is a sensitive question. You don't have to answer. Is it possible to share how you
know that VORJA was working for PHILLIPS in 1960?

Escalante: Yes. Somebody saw him visit the office of PHILLIPS.

?____________: That's 1960. I am talking about 1963.

Escalante: So was I.

?____________: You began by saying that Eusebio looked like ANGEL.

Escalante: Yes. Resembles ANGEL. That is why I researched ANGEL. Dealt with arms traffic. There
is something very important there that I haven't gotten . In December, a communique taking notice
that there were three members of the DRE - CARLOS ROCHA, JULIO GARCIA. They had fought
in a battle in Escambray while there were troops. That was very strange because it didn't have any
meaning. Of course we checked - the date was the wrong date. But also, they were well known
because it was a family of three brothers. One was a counter revolutionary. Two was ????? And in the
same battle, two brothers died. In that battle, none of these two person names and they never were a
part of the record. And we did research on these two persons and we really were able to locate
CARLOS ROCHA. And the CARLOS ROCHA we found......... This is our first discovery . In Cuba in
1960, the very same date that the Bringuier brothers memorial, he had established was called CASA
ROCHA. Another detail we found for CARLOS ROCHA, was that Carlos stored things. Because he
tried to steal..... A DAVID FERRIE investigation of Jim Garrison said he was waiting for a Cuban
exile named CARLOS. So we cannot say that this is the same person, but there is a very interesting
relation. Because why Bringuier comes to store named CASA ROCHA. This was the first visit
OSWALD did, when he proposes his services to get involved in the anti-Castro movement. It turns
out to be that Carlos has an outstanding role in the OSWALD history. Bringuier had an association.
Carlos did not fight in Cuba, at least not in the battle he says. So we think perhaps he was trying to
find a way out, and through the disappearance of these three Cuban exiles. Maybe they were killed.
Maybe dangerous witnesses. Maybe part of a plot. There is another point to make. The role of DE
GOICOCHEO SANCHEZ. DRE representative in Dallas. He also ends up being tied to the story. We
found that both DE GOICOCHEO and SALVAT were involved in arms trafficking in Dallas for
Central America. That people in Central America were people of ???????????????? Looks to us like
this arm trafficking could have been for an invasion of Cuba. I think that this group of DRE was
manipulated by the separation , the assassination disinformation plan for Cuba. That's the real reason
for the presence of SALVAT and DE GOICOCHEO in Dallas. There wasn't arms trafficking, it was
??????? and could have been part of the plot to assassinate Kennedy. That is the information we have
on these subjects.

Now, ELADIO DEL VALLE. He worked for two police services - military intelligence and the
traditional police. He was in charge of narcotics. He was also a legislature in the government - a
representative. He was from a little town from the south of Havana. He was a captain in the merchant
marines. In 1958 he was doing business dealings with SANTOS TRAFFICANTE in a little coastal
town south of Havana. There he brought in contraband whose destination was SANTOS
TRAFFICANTE. When the revolution triumphed, he went to Miami., ELADIO DEL VALLE went to
Miami. He settled in Miami, we don't know the address and he allied himself with ROLANDO
MASFERRER and other Batista supporters and they formed an organization called the Anti
Communist Cuban Liberation Movement. From that moment on, ELADIO was involved in many
project against Cuba. But as I told you yesterday, we managed to penetrate this organization. And we
came to know of a lot of projects, efforts, for an invasion of Cuba in secret. In order to provide arms
to internal rebel groups, they needed DAVID FERRIE as the pilot on these flights. In 1962. ELADIO
DEL VALLE tried to infiltrate Cuba with a commando group of 22 men but their boat had an English
key - a little island. In the middle of 1962. Of course, we knew this. I tell you about this, because one
of our agents who was one of the people helping to bring this group to Cuba, was a man of very little
education. They talked English on many occasions on this little island with DEL VALLE.. DEL
VALLE told this person , on many occasions, that Kennedy must be killed to solve the Cuban
problem. After that we had another piece of information on ELADIO DEL VALLE. This was offered
to us be CUESTA. He told us that ELADIO DEL VALLE was one of the people involved in the
assassination plot against Kennedy. As you know, he was taken prisoner and he was very thankful to
be taken back - he was blind.

?____________: Are they written? Tony CUESTA said that DEL VALLE and who else?

?____________: Are the statements of CUESTA written or taped?

Escalante: Written by the interrogator.

?____________: The declarations that were made by CUESTA, when was that?

Escalante: Early 1978. In August he was set free. I have it written. I had several conversations with
him. Interviews to speak about different things. We didn't question him about this because we didn't
know about his involvement. We were just trying to question and this came out. Cuban exiles in
Miami, somebody was arrested in 1966 and he told us a little of this history. His plan, his projects.

?____________: 1978 - wouldn't that have been about the same time the congressional committee
went to Havana? If it was before, was this information given tot he committee?

Escalante: No. He asked that this information not be public. I am only saying it here, because he is
already dead. It is finished. We didn't have any other kind of information to give. There are some
things you must respect. He gave us this information and in 1978 we didn't know if it was true or not.
In 1978, we were not aware of the participation of ELADIO DEL VALLE. We didn't know who he
was. Remember that I explained to you yesterday that when the Select Committee when they came to
Havana - they didn't give us any specific information. They just came to question us. We didn't know
the relationships.

?____________: Can the written report now be supplied?

Escalante: I am sorry. I cannot do this. Because it is a Cuban document. I am just telling you what I
know. I speak of these things. I didn't have the authority to do that.

?____________: Could we begin a process? Tony CUESTA was released as part of a general .....


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