TRANSCRIPT of
PROCEEDINGS
between
CUBAN OFFICIALS
and JFK HISTORIANS
TAPE 4 of 8
NASSAU BEACH HOTEL
7/9 DECEMBER 1995
NASSAU Tape #4
This tape starts with a statement in progress..........
Q: That this story is largely if not completely false. The
purpose of this
story was to implicate Havana
in the assassination. I may retract one hypothesis I had
which was that the
story was invented entirely
after the publication of the Warren Commission. It appears
now there are
indicators that this story
may have, in fact, been put together earlier. As early as
the days just following
the assassination. I
don't think this changes the hypothesis, it only adds
strength to it. It
is clear to me that most of the
individuals from whom the pieces of information actually
come, are mostly
local leftists. We also know
that the person who handled the leftist files in Mexico City
was, in fact,
DAVID PHILLIPS. It is also
clear from reading the LOPEZ report, that when E. LOPEZ
interviewed DAVID
PHILLIPS, that
DAVID PHILLIPS lied about his knowledge about the so-called
OSWALD-DURAN
affair., in the
beginning feigning ignorance of all of the documents in
possession of the
Mexico City CIA station.
Only after E. LOPEZ showed him these documents one by one,
did DAVID Phillips
begin to
acknowledge knowledge of these documents. I have spoken this
morning , as
one or two of you have
here, with CARLOS LECHUGA about the story, which I
published, of the allegations
of a sexual
liaison between himself and Silvia DURAN. Which she, for the
first time in
an interview with Tony
Summers recently spoke on affirming that such an affair had
taken place.
What lead me to the story
was a documentary basis. In the first instance CIA
documents, that they were
related to FBI
documents from late 1962. I don't recall the date right now,
but I am going
to guess, November or
December 1962. It is very interesting to me that, if this is
not true....
and CARLOS LECHUGA denies
this story. What we face here is either a person somewhere
in intelligence,
because the FBI
documents make reference to very sensitive channels. Some
source in US intelligence
as early as late
1962 putting false information into the intelligence channel
or perhaps at
a time after the
assassination fully false documents into the record. So I am
very intrigued
at this situation. So I don't
pretend to have the answers, but in light of what CARLOS
LECHUGA said....the
first words spoken
by Silvia DURAN to Summers in the interview when he brought
up this subject
now ring in my ears.
When Tony said, asked her about the alleged affair and
mentioned that there
were documents, her
first words were, and correct me if I am wrong, "Oh, that's
top secret."
Summers: I would just like to say here. I gather that my
colleague John Newman
has mentioned it to
you, not in the conference. I would have hesitated to ask
you about it in
such a wide forum. If this is
your private life and something you don't want to discuss
openly in this
forum, please say so, because
it seems to me a private matter.
Lechuga: I have no objection about that.
Summers: Well then, fine.
Lechuga: He approached me.
Summers: Right.. Then the extraordinary thing to me then is
that just last
year in 1994 when I asked
her about this. And by this time I was, back up for a
moment. I think I was
the first journalist from
America or Europe to sit down for any great length with
Silvia DURAN back
in 1978. and came to
know her pretty well then and revisited her in 1993. And
spent a lot of time
with her again then. At
that time I asked her about the story cited by ELENA GARRO
that Oswald had
been at the twist
party held at DURAN'S house, and that she, DURAN, had slept
with Oswald.
And she just laughed a
lot and thought it very funny and said, "No of course. If
you had seen him,
you think I would sleep
with such a weedy little man, Oswald. Certainly not. And
anyway I was married
at the time." She
rejected the story completely. When, by 1993, I had now
heard of the suggestion
that she had had an
affair with you, sir, I put it to her on the phone and there
was silence
and she said, "Oh, that is
supposed to be top secret. But since it is now in the
documents that have
been released, I guess I can
refer to it. "And she said this was a very serious affair
with you and that
she had hoped that she would
be able to join you. And that if you were going to be
permanently in New
York, she would have gone to
New York and even married you. I mean, and as a Christmas
present to you,
I will send you a tape of
her interview. But this means nothing to you?
Lechuga: (Lots of laughter from ESCALANTE, NUNEZ and
LECHUGA) You have the
tape here?
Summers: No, not here. But I will send it to you for
Christmas. (Lots of
laughter again) But, you knew
her?
Lechuga: Of course, she worked in the consulate.
Smith: But not in the biblical sense.
Lechuga: She worked in the consulate of Cuba in Mexico. I
seldom saw her
because of two different
building.
Summers: Yes I know
Lechuga: In the garden of the embassy, the patio of the
embassy.
Summers: Do you people have any reason to suppose that
Silvia DURAN, looking
back, that Silvia
DURAN may have been involved in any way with US
intelligence?
Lechuga: No.
Summers: So it's a mystery.
Lechuga: Yes.
?____________: The impression that I got from the
researchers was that they
had strong suspicions
that DURAN was , in fact, involved with US intelligence. And
I have here
a little paragraph I would
like you to read while they were interviewing DAVID
PHILLIPS. It's interesting
in terms of his
non-responses about, how vague he gets. Mr. PHILLIPS says
that he first heard
the name of Silvia
DURAN about the time he arrived in Mexico, as soon as he
started reading
the telephone taps
transcripts. "Her name appeared time and time again." He
added, "We had no
interest in her. She
wasn't friendly with anyone." Mr. PHILLIPS had previously
mentioned in his
discussion of the Cuban
shop's interest in recruiting agents, the name of Ambassador
Lechuga and
their interest in pitching,
recruiting, enticing him. Mr. PHILLIPS was shown Slawson's
memo concerning
his trip to Mexico
where Scott told him that the CIA had a substantial prior
interest in DURAN
because of her affair
with Lechuga.
Lechuga: Who told that?
?____________: Win Scott. Station chief. That may be where
it started. PHILLIPS
seemed surprised
and said, "No one let me in on this operation." Mr. PHILLIPS
said that "it
is possible that the agency
pitched DURAN". This was the guy that was in charge. "At one
time we pitched
almost everyone at
the Cuban embassy. She must have been considered. Mr.
PHILLIPS said that
it was possible that she
was not pitched because the station could not identify any
of her weaknesses.
At this point Mr.
PHILLIPS was told about LITAMEL/Nine report on DURAN that
said that all that
would have been
done to recruit her was to get a blond haired blue eyed
American in bed with
the little ??????. Mr.
PHILLIPS admitted that it sounded like she had at least been
targeted and
that the station interest
was substantial and the weakness and means had been
identified. He pointed
out, however, that
targeting does not necessarily mean that she had been
pitched, enticed. Even
if she had been pitched,
that she had accepted. Mr. PHILLIPS stated that Miss DURAN'S
201 file should
be very thick. He
stated that a thin 201 file prior to the assassination would
be very surprising.
And I think at that time,
her file, at least what the CIA turned over to the
committee, had three documents
in it. I thought that
would be interesting to hear.
?____________: That's the passage I was referring to just a
minute ago. And
if you go on reading, you
will see Mr. PHILLIPS gradually beginning to agree with
EDDIE LOPEZ, piece
by piece. And the
question in my mind is how DAVID PHILLIPS, if he in fact was
head of Cuban
operations in Mexico
City, would not have had access to this material. It makes
no sense to me.
So it looks to me like
PHILLIPS was playing along with Eddie Lopez. But let's be
clear about one
thing. This story was very
important. I am talking , not about the Lechuga piece, but
about the OSWALD-DURAN
piece.
?____________: Which is also corroborated by LI/Nine.
?____________: Right. For years after the assassination,
this story grew
and grew and grew. It
involved people, very interesting people, including a career
foreign service
officer. Mr. CHARLES
THOMAS, who became part of the story then in 1964 and 1965.
Then again in
1969, writing directly
to the Secretary of State about it. Given the magnitude of
the story and
all the people involved in it,
and apparently it is false. The whole subject of Duran's
extra-marital activities,
I think deserves close
attention. And if there was no affair between Mr. Lechuga
and DURAN, it gives
us, for the first time,
a crucial distinction between , on the one hand, an affair
or a piece of
disinformation created after the
assassination, and on the other hand a piece of
disinformation created before
the assassination. To
wit, a document, an FBI document, a CIA document about this
in 1962. Anyway,
I think that I am
sufficiently interested now in this to say that this should
be looked at
more closely.
?____________: Is that the CHARLIE THOMAS who committed
suicide?
?____________: Yes it is.
Summers: Before we leave this business of amour, I am
really, I would not
have discussed this
incident in this forum, but I was planning to ask you about
it sir. I am
so surprised that there's nothing
to it, because there was just a pause on the telephone with
a man, me, who
she had met over the years
and talked to over the years often. And she paused for one,
two three, that
long. And then she said,
"Oh, I thought that was still very secret, but since it's
out....". She talked
as if she loved you then and
she loves you now. I'm sorry.
Lechuga: I don't know why she told you that. It is a
mystery. It has nothing
to do with the whole
thing....the embassy in Mexico.
Summers: Except that it's not a true story.
?____________: It's clear that in the files, these
documents, the FBI documents
and the CIA
documents, were being looked at about the DURAN Lechuga
affair, were being
examined because of
the light they might shed on the DURAN Oswald affair. That
in the minds of
the investigators, this
was the relevance of these documents. That's why we have
them today.
?____________: The only relevance could be that the story
was that if OSWALD
is send by the CIA
to meet with Silvia and DURAN at the Cuban embassy and there
is this story
about you and DURAN
at the same that you are starting this overture with the
Kennedy administration.
You can see how
people might want to mix these things up.
Escalante: In the first place, let me make clear that Mr.
Lechuga in 1962
up to the days of the missile
crisis, at which point he was called by Premier Fidel Castro
to be his representative
at the United
Nations. So he was present and participated in the
conversations that happened
in Cuba during the
missile crisis. Then he went back to the United States and
he stayed there
until after the Kennedy
assassination. AS you heard this morning, his versions of
those conversations.
Really, this stuff about
Silvia Duran's relations really surprises us. It is outside
the context of
this meeting. As you said, the
telephone......
Lechuga: Really, this is all an invention. In this book it
says that this
story of Silvia DURAN is made
to separate me from my wife. I was with my wife in Mexico.
This affair was
for me to have a divorce
from my wife. She says she was expecting me to divorce. The
truth was that
I was with my wife in
Mexico. From Mexico, I went to New York with my wife. And it
was two years
in New York with my
wife. Later on I went to Havana when I was appointed to the
President of
the National Culture Council
and my wife went with me to Havana. I was divorced to my
wife in 1967, five
years after that story she
had done. And for personal reasons that have nothing to do
with politics
or nothing. I think it is
something she invented. Anyway, It is very surprising that
Silvia DURAN,
in 1978....
Summers: In 1993.
Lechuga: ....In 1993, could say that, Yes, she had an affair
with me. It
doesn't match.
Summers: And I think what should concern us all is the
question that if Silvia
DURAN is still, even
today, suddenly inventing this, what else has she invented
down the years?
Lechuga: On the other hand, it is very queer, because I
think Silvia DURAN
was, had a good position
here. She was arrested by the police in Mexico. She was
tortured. And she
refused to link Oswald
with Cuba. So she had a good attitude.
Summers: She told me that she wasn't tortured at all. That
the police just
sort of shook her about.
?____________: She told you that when she was in Mexico.
Summers: She was in Mexico. But also in her manuscript about
this.
?____________: My interest is how close DAVID PHILLIPS is to
the pieces of
this story.
Smith: Fabian is, I think, uncomfortable with this. I take
it that John had
spoken with Carlos before
the meeting and otherwise, we wouldn't have. But I very much
appreciate his
willingness to discuss
this. And it is, in fact, very important point to clear up.
Not because of
personal at all, no one cares
about that. But because of SILVIA Duran's role in all of
this. And I would
suggest that we all look
again at the question whether or not she does have some U.S.
intelligence,
or some other motive here,
but I apologize to Carlos, I really do, and I appreciate his
willingness
to discuss this and it was an
important point to clarify, and that Carlos was willing.
Scott: I would like to come back solidly on the theme of
DAVID PHILLIPS and
of course, one of his
specialties is false stories And we have trouble picking our
way thru all
these things. It is interesting
worth remember , it came up briefly, the story of Alvarado
the Nicaraguan
in Mexico because it told
us not only that it was another false story to link Oswald
and Cuba together
to the assassination. It
was a story that was vigorously promoted at the time by
DAVID PHILLIPS. And
what we learned
also was that DAVID PHILLIPS was not alone here. And what
was surprising
in the documents is the
extent to which he was encouraged, the Alvarado story was
actively promoted
by the chief of station
Win Scott, and the Ambassador Thomas MANN. And when you come
to Thomas MANN,
he was both
a career State Department official, but also he was someone
quite close to
Lyndon Johnson, who
promoted him right after. And in particular, Thomas MANN
served as interpreter
when Lyndon
Johnson would meet on his ranch with ORTAS who graduated
from being head
of Cuba Nation to
being the President of Mexico. So we shouldn't just think of
PHILLIPS as
an individual. He was part
of a faction that included more important people. Including,
particularly
Thomas MANN, who had
announced in 1963 that he would retire from the foreign
service and who became
the Assistant
Secretary for all of Latin America. At the time of the coup
in Brazil and
many thru 1964., the Brazilian
coup
Lechuga: He was an enemy of Cuba. He certainly was on the
other hemisphere.
Smith: Well, he was, but on the other hand. I would fully
agree. On the other
hand. Thomas MANN
sent a memo before the Bay of Pigs saying it was illegal. It
would be a violation
of international law.
The memo did not get any support, so he dropped it and, in
the final meeting,
he voted for the Bay of
Pigs invasion also. He was very close to Lyndon Johnson. I
wouldn't put Thomas
MANN in the same
boat with DAVID PHILLIPS , but he was very conservative and
certainly was
no friend of Cuba. He
sent forward the memo not because he didn't want to do in
the Cuban government,
it was because he
felt this means was inappropriate.
Scott: It was Thomas MANN, in a cable, who told Washington
that SILVIA DURAN
should be
re-arrested in the light of the ALVARADO story and that she
should be tortured
and that they should
be told to break her. It is astonishing to me that this was
in force.
?____________: We don't know to what extent MANN was being
fed information
by Scott.
Scott: But we do know that MANN signs the cable. In other
words, It wasn't
the CIA cable, it was an
Embassy cable.
?____________: My point is that he may have been manipulated
by Scott in
terms of believing that.
Scott: My point is that up to know, we have been talking
about PHILLIPS as
a sinister individual. And
we have to deal with a whole , right there in the Mexican
Embassy, there
was a very powerful,
manipulative... People who were trying to exploit the
assassination in order
to mount opposition to
Cuba. And it's really a question whether you, on your sides,
have asked yourself
about the role of Win
Scott and Thomas MANN and their connection to the Mexican
government.
Lechuga: I don't have any information.
Summers: Coming back to disinformation, another thing that I
think is new
and definitely perhaps
interesting to those of you around the table who don't know
and also our
Cuban friends. One of the
stories told immediately after the assassination, was that
OSWALD had met
during his visit to
Mexico with the Cuban Ambassador. And that the Cuban
Ambassador had dined
with OSWALD,
taken him to a name restaurant. Like the ALVARADO story,
this was designed
to suggest that the
Cubans had been plotting something with OSWALD. The source,
the main source
of this story was a
character called SALVADOR DIAZ. And I think we know
something about him.
And this story was
repeated by a man who, is to this day, a prominent Cuban
exile journalist
writing, among other things,
for Excelsior, in Mexico City. His name is GUERRO.
Lechuga: (Acknowledges the name)
Summers: And I interviewed him in Mexico City two years ago
to ask him about
the origins of this
story and how he remembered it. And he is old now, but very
fit, and he sat
in his office surrounded by
his....It is one of those offices filled with plaques and
pictures of himself
with famous people, including
Nixon....And he told me his version of the story. And he
said "Yes, the story
was so and I believe it to
this day." And he says the story was told to him, and this
is the sinister
bit, about as early as
September, no October, early October.. The story about
OSWALD meeting with
the Cuban
Ambassador. In other words, this was not a post
assassination story of opportunism,
this was a story
told clearly for a purpose well, well before the
assassination. And said
he had named to me in turn the
sources that provided the story and I am afraid I cannot
remember the name
of these two other
sources. But one of them is the former Batista chief of
police, who is now
dead.
Lechuga: Orlando GUTIERREZ.
Summers: Cannot remember. I have it.....But this seems to me
very significant
because the story
about OSWALD was being told well before the assassination.
And I believe
the date could tell us that
the Assassinations Committee identified certainly, SALVADOR
DIAZ as an agent
of DAVID
PHILLIPS.
?____________: We found that many disinformation stories
stemmed from Phillips'
assets.
?____________: There were many stories coming out of Miami
about Oswald and
demonstrations and
pro-Cuban groups in Miami. They put OSWALD in Miami and a
number of different
places, all with
pro-Castro groups.
TRANSCRIBER'S NOTE: I had an awful time in this section with
Arturo speaking
so loud and Mirta
so softly. You will need to check it closely. sorry......
Rogers: I just wanted to speak now about the ?????. About a
new conversation
I had this morning
with John Newman. I was telling Newman that I was certain
that all the information
that was given up
in Mexico, in one way or another in implicating Cuba in the
murder was disinformation.
Some were
prepared before the murder and some after. The decision of
the Warren Commission
.........involved.
Some of the documents. According to my reading and different
sources, my
impression is that
disinformation was sent off by PHILLIPS at several
directions. One was to
discredit the witnesses. On
the other hand, blame Cuba for the assassination. The
decision itself to
arrest SILVIA DURAN, at
the following day after Kennedy's assassination allows that
she was a crucial
witness of OSWALD's
visit to the consulate. And Silvia's declaration of her
police statements
in Mexico were several times
modified. Several times. I think there are four or five
different versions
of her declarations. However,
we do not have any motive to doubt of Silvia's integrity.
About things that
have come on top of her,
that she was a Cuban agent, ex-agent, American agent.
Logically, we can only
say no - on the Cuban
side. To believe her, her own declarations could never be
known before the
parliamentary commission
in the United States. I think up to 1978, in which she was
interviewed in
Mexico, her declarations was
same as she gave to the Warren Commission. We also think
that it was admitted
by documents about
the declarations. It is an effort to try to discredit her.
If she had an
affair, but not with Oswald, but
Lechuga, etc. All of these persons who give this information
were either
CIA officials or CIA agents in
the CIA station in Mexico. The very same research in the US.
The origin of
this information about the
relations of SILVIA DURAN, I think was someone called JUNE
COBB. But also,
with this initial
......... Ambassador Thomas is unofficial second secretary
at the embassy
at November in the CIA and
so on. The person that is related to one
disinformation....Why should we
fall into a trap to pay
attention to this many disinformation? Is it to take us away
from our main
object ? Or take us away
from the truth, which is precisely what we are trying to get
to. It is not
true that OSWALD had plans
to kill Kennedy in the Cuban consulate. It is not true.
Absolutely not true.
Some of our officials have
been , I am sure........have been interviewed. Even Fidel
Castro was questioned.
Despite
disinformation we might have had, ...... That should tell
you that the government
itself if also ......There
are no records that .... Trying to discredit the witnesses
at the Cuban consulate
and blame our
country.
?____________: When you went thru the files of the Cuban
State council, it
wasn't clear to me
whether you were saying there was no reference to the SOLO
people or if there
was no reference to
the statement that SOLO was recorded to have made about
OSWALD.
Rogers: I am not a
Escalante: No interview with any director of the Communist
Party shows up.
?____________: If OSWALD didn't threaten to kill Kennedy ,
what was it that
made Azcue so angry
to throw OSWALD out of the embassy and say that he was a
detriment to the
revolution?
Escalante: There is an important detail we haven't taken
into account. In
the inspector general's
report on the CIA in 1967 there was some very important
information. It was
explaining the
AMLASH operation, which was CUBELA, as we know. It says that
CUBELA came
back on the first
day of the assassination and this report says that two days
after the assassination,
the CIA officer in
Mexico City sent a cable to the headquarters in Langley. It
says that CUBELA
showed up on a list of
Soviet agents in Mexico City. This seemed very strange to
him too.
Scott: I think that technically, ANGLETON, inside the CIA,
drew attention
to the fact that CUBELA
had been a contact of KOSTIKOV. KOSTIKOV was supposed to be
the agent who
, in theory, had
met with OSWALD on September 28. John Newman and I don't
believe in the credibility
of that story.
We have seen the cable on which ANGLETON based his claim.
They had KOSTIKOV
under
continuous surveillance since he came to Mexico years
before. And in an extraordinarily
long list of
people he had seen, there was one contact with CUBELA in, I
believe, 1960.
About three years before
the assassination. So from our point of view, it was
ridiculous. But that
was what ANGLETON used as
a pretext to take over the control of the investigation of
the Kennedy assassination.
Scott: I wanted to make a more general point, but if you
want to respond
on the
CUBELA-KOSTIKOV point.....
Escalante: CUBELA worked in Mexico from January to the first
few days of
1961. CUBELA never
came back to Mexico. In the second place, during the 1961
trip to Mexico,
that's when he was
recruited by the CIA. Carlos already explained who he was.
An American case
officer, a physical
description. He already told you. This is the man who
matched DAVID PHILLIPS
description. I
doesn't know if CUBELA was in the Soviet Embassy in 1961.
But if he was there,
then it would have
had to have been social or diplomatic activity. I don't know
how KOSTIKOV
could have been tied to
CUBELA. In reality they probably hardly knew each other or
probably never
met. Whoever it was
that received OSWALD at the Soviet Embassy, it definitely
wasn't KOSTIKOV.
It was probably P.
YAKOV. This cable that was sent from Mexico to Langley, it
didn't have anything
to do with
ANGLETON. It tied to CUBELA to CIA. And this same CUBELA was
recruited by
the CIA two
years before. Since CUBELA was in Paris on the day of the
assassination receiving
weapons or arms,
it seems really strange to me. There are other things, other
connections
perhaps. They are just made
up, something that Angleton just made up. Maybe one of
ANGLETON'S own obsessions.
There could
be other alternatives. We've analyzed these events because
we are talking
about the scene in
Mexico. We are saying that PHILLIPS could have deceived with
disinformation
. In other words, this
cable that had to do with the Cubans, PHILLIPS had to know
about. It is probably
more likely that he
just made it up.
Smith: PHILLIPS, as I think we all know, had been in charge
of disinformation
in Guatemala. During
the invasion, he was the one responsible for spreading the
stories of the
advance of the victorious
liberating army when, in fact, there wasn't any advance at
all. And who took
over the operation of the
radio. So this was his specialty and we would have to
assume, even if we
didn't know, that in Mexico.
?____________: The question that puzzles me is that, if you
assume, and I
think there is a fairly good
amount of evidence that PHILLIPS was involved in the
disinformation in the
Kennedy assassination,
one - is there any innocent explanation for that apart from
involvement in
the Kennedy assassination.
And two - since PHILLIPS is a disinformation specialist,
that doesn't get
you to shooting the
president. Is there any link whether PHILLIPS connections
with the Army or
with Special Forces, or
someone that could have carried out an assassination?
?____________: I want to jump in on this one. We've been
drawing some distinctions
here a couple of
times. I think Tony Summers brought up something, he's gone
now. A piece
that was
pre-assassination piece. And I find that more interesting
than things that
are definitely post
assassination information. But while we were talking here
today, something
that came to mind was my
interview with June COBB. And she was discussing the twist
party and this
was the beginning of the
story of OSWALD's extra-marital affairs. June COBB stayed
with ELENA GARRO
in the days after
the assassination and talked to her at length about this
supposed party.
And what JUNE COBB said
was that the people who were invited were predominantly left
wing, local
left wing people. And
ELENA GARRO was out of sorts and disgusted in that way. But
the impression
that was generated
by these events, was that the Cuban community in Mexico City
was being organized
for the purpose
of effecting OSWALD's escape after the assassination.
Therefore further implicating
the Cubans in
the story. And this story comes to us from a CIA informant,
JUNE COBB. What
I find interesting
about this is the nexus of OSWALD and ELENA GARRO and local
left wing Cubans
in Mexico City
before the assassination. So it would be an example of a
story put together
prior to November 22,
which, if it had followed through would have been very bad
for Cuba.
?____________: One possibility is that if the cable linking
CUBELA to KOSTIKOV
is false, and
PHILLIPS generates it perhaps. If you look ahead a few years
later to the
Johnny ROSELLI story
that teams of Cubans were turned around. In other words,
Castro supposedly
did it by turning around
assassination teams sent in against Castro. I'm tired too,
but do you see
my point? If CUBELA is
falsely linked to the Soviets and as a double agent for
Castro, the false
stories kind of continue
through CUBELA's ties to the plot. Does that make sense?
Winslow: We brought up DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS and Swan Island.
Now is it possible
that David
PHILLIPS knew MAS [CANOSA]?
Escalante: He did know MAS.
Winslow: He did?
?________: MAS worked directly for him.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
END OF DAY ONE
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Smith: The topic as we begin this morning is EXILES - a
broad topic. And
we will discuss Oswald in
Mexico in the second session this morning. We've already
discussed this,
but in a more specific point
this morning. For the afternoon we have scheduled a
discussion of Cuban theories
of Kennedy's
assassination. I will draw up a list of participants to
distribute to all
of you. Any questions or
comments on procedures? Let's begin.
Scott: For the record, I would like to go on past six.
Smith: At a given point, what we can do is state that the
formal session
is over, and anyone who wants
to stay can continue the conversations. This should be a
very interesting
discussion at this point. On
the exiles, on the agenda beginning from the US side. Do you
know the real
names of the two Cuban
exiles using the code names ANGEL and LEOPOLDO who visited
SILVIA ODIO? From
the Cuban
side: What information do US researchers have about the
training camps near
New Orleans? Some of
you have written about that. What about the New
Orleans-Dallas-Miami gun
running operation?
We've touched on that already. What connection does it have
to the crime?
Which figures in the
Florida exile community were most probably involved in the
murder and why?
And which exile
organizations seemed to operate independently from JM/WAVE?
Let's go to the
Cuban side first.
Escalante: For ANGEL and LEOPOLDO, we would like to develop
some information
according to our
judgment on Santiago, was running an operation of the CIA
until 1962. He
was informing the groups of
exiles in the United States about Kennedy administrations
attempts to have
dialog with Cuba. While
interrogating SANTIAGO in Cuba, we came up with some more
interesting information.
He was
arrested in 1964, March. A few months after the
assassination. He explained
that he had a
relationship with a CIA official, who was military
intelligence - William
BISHOP. He says that in
November of 1963, William BISHOP invited him to a meeting in
Dallas. It was
a meeting with a few
wealthy people in Dallas talking about financing an
anti-Castro.
?____________: What was the date again?
Escalante: The first few days of November, 1963. He says
that William Bishop
picked him up in his
car in Miami and they drove to Dallas. They were there for
about four days.
This would had to have
happened the weekend before the assassination, according to
what he says.
They stayed in a second
class hotel. They stayed in a second class hotel. Bishop
left several times
to have interviews. But this
guy did not know who he was talking to. After approximately
four days, they
returned to Miami. After
the assassination, they were in Tallahassee, when he went to
visit a new
house for a new car. He
passed information ..
?____________: When did he say this?
Escalante: In March, 1964. When he was being interrogated.
?____________: Did he identify any of the wealthy people he
met? Hunt?
Escalante: No. There is something else. I found his name in
your book. That's
where I went to look
him up. I didn't know who he was. He was arrested in March
of 1964 when he
tried to ram his boat in
Cuba with three others to perform acts of sabotage. There he
had many conversations
with us. He just
told us this of his own accord. We didn't ask questions. Our
interest really
were in the plan of
sabotage. Sabotage when and where. We wanted to know what
was behind the
sabotage and then he
started to talk about his subject. So then, that's why a
decision was made
to take down everything he
said. And that's why we have tapes. He talked about things
not associated
with the sabotage. There
were too many people, we didn't have the resources or tapes
to take it. It
was in his first declaration,
it was political information. He came to us for the first
time to talk to
us about September of 1962,
opening a communication with Cuba. And that was very
important to tape all
of his conversations
about Cuba.
?____________: But Felipe Vidal was not talking about dialog
with Cuba. Quite
the contrary.
Escalante: Oh no. He told us. As I read yesterday.
Scott: Two points. First, SANTIAGO was a major figure in
Iran Contra.
Escalante: It is not the same person. He died in Cuba He was
an official
from the navy. In 1959, he
was in Cuba and Venezuela. In 1960, he went to Columbia,
left Miami and he
had a conversation with
???????????.
Scott: I don't want to be a bore, but I keep a file on Cuban
exiles.
Escalante: Maybe it is the son. The same name.
Scott: Well I was actually told that the father was killed
and that this
was the son. In 1981, I had a
phone call from Gerry Patrick Hemming. I did not solicit the
call. And he
told me quite a lot about
your man, the one that was killed. What interests me is that
he said that
his group in 1964 was FLN,
which I assume was ___________________. And that when he was
arrested in
Cuba, my notes says
that Charles Astin was the lawyer and sought belligerent
status for SANTIAGO.
And the other thing
is that Hemming drew my attention to him and I don't know
why.
Escalante: I have read somewhere, I am not sure who the
writer is. That some
American publication,
that HEMMING later said that he was invited by some to a
meeting that was
to take place in Dallas
in November 1963, but that he did not go. And I read
somewhere, at least
I am telling you the
declarations that that meeting took place. I didn't ask him
about his. Nobody
asked him. Our cameras
were not on. He gave us political information we did not ask
him. But nobody
asked him.
?____________: I did not put in my book what Colonel Bishop
told me about
SANTIAGO, but we did
talk about it a great deal and he knew him very well.
Lesar: I can talk about HEMMING, who showed up in my office
a few years ago.
He mentioned the
meeting in Dallas with members of the Petroleum Club and he
said that he
had been at that meeting.
And that the talk was about that the problem was not in
Cuba, the problem
was in Washington.
?____________: HEMMING told me he was NOT at the meeting.
That he was invited
to go. He said
that he warned SANTIAGO not to go.
Winslow: HEMMING named his son after SANTIAGO.
Smith: He did.
Escalante: Felipe.
Winslow: You know he was married to a Cuban woman before
that was killed
in prison in Cuba.
Escalante: HEMMING?
Winslow: Her name? I don't know. I don't recall the name. I
think she was
killed in '59, early on. She
was put into a prison or something. He didn't go in to it.
Escalante: No woman died in a Cuban prison.
Nunez: I can speak for the women's movement in Cuba too. No
woman died in
prison.
Escalante: Yesterday I talked about a person - SIMO (Cesar).
Like I explained
yesterday, this
person was born in Mexico. He had Mexican features, coarse.
He became a Cuban
citizen in the
1950's and he studied engineering. In 1959 or 60 he
affiliated himself with
a group called Salvat. AS I
said, he was one of the people who frequently visited
PHILLIPS' office in
Havana. He asked for
asylum in 1960. And in his house they found a large cache of
arms and explosives.
I am sure that is
the reason he asked for asylum in the first place.
Interestingly, in the
same embassy he asked for
asylum at the same time was Ricardo Morales. After he left
Cuba, he went
to Mexico and after that
to Miami.
?____________: Ricardo MORALES was in the same asylum and
same time?
Escalante: Same date and same embassy.
?____________: Interesting
Escalante: See, when several people seek asylum in the same
embassy at the
same time, you sort of
assume they are in cahoots with each other.. We had
information that in 1963
Eusebio VORJA was
working for David Phillips in Mexico. That's the only
information we have
on Eusebio. The description
of Eusebio VORJA is the same as that given by Silvia ODIO.
?____________: Spell his whole name
Escalante: In the Cuban registry, he shows up under two
names - ISIDRO and
EUSEBIO. S-I-M-O.
?____________: Is there anything linking him to other Cuban
exiles - Eladio
del Valle, Masferrer?
Escalante: Eladio del Valle. No. I told you what we know.
Felipe did have
relations, but not Eusebio.
?____________: This is a sensitive question. You don't have
to answer. Is
it possible to share how you
know that VORJA was working for PHILLIPS in 1960?
Escalante: Yes. Somebody saw him visit the office of
PHILLIPS.
?____________: That's 1960. I am talking about 1963.
Escalante: So was I.
?____________: You began by saying that Eusebio looked like
ANGEL.
Escalante: Yes. Resembles ANGEL. That is why I researched
ANGEL. Dealt with
arms traffic. There
is something very important there that I haven't gotten . In
December, a
communique taking notice
that there were three members of the DRE - CARLOS ROCHA,
JULIO GARCIA. They
had fought
in a battle in Escambray while there were troops. That was
very strange because
it didn't have any
meaning. Of course we checked - the date was the wrong date.
But also, they
were well known
because it was a family of three brothers. One was a counter
revolutionary.
Two was ????? And in the
same battle, two brothers died. In that battle, none of
these two person
names and they never were a
part of the record. And we did research on these two persons
and we really
were able to locate
CARLOS ROCHA. And the CARLOS ROCHA we found......... This is
our first discovery
. In Cuba in
1960, the very same date that the Bringuier brothers
memorial, he had established
was called CASA
ROCHA. Another detail we found for CARLOS ROCHA, was that
Carlos stored things.
Because he
tried to steal..... A DAVID FERRIE investigation of Jim
Garrison said he
was waiting for a Cuban
exile named CARLOS. So we cannot say that this is the same
person, but there
is a very interesting
relation. Because why Bringuier comes to store named CASA
ROCHA. This was
the first visit
OSWALD did, when he proposes his services to get involved in
the anti-Castro
movement. It turns
out to be that Carlos has an outstanding role in the OSWALD
history. Bringuier
had an association.
Carlos did not fight in Cuba, at least not in the battle he
says. So we think
perhaps he was trying to
find a way out, and through the disappearance of these three
Cuban exiles.
Maybe they were killed.
Maybe dangerous witnesses. Maybe part of a plot. There is
another point to
make. The role of DE
GOICOCHEO SANCHEZ. DRE representative in Dallas. He also
ends up being tied
to the story. We
found that both DE GOICOCHEO and SALVAT were involved in
arms trafficking
in Dallas for
Central America. That people in Central America were people
of ????????????????
Looks to us like
this arm trafficking could have been for an invasion of
Cuba. I think that
this group of DRE was
manipulated by the separation , the assassination
disinformation plan for
Cuba. That's the real reason
for the presence of SALVAT and DE GOICOCHEO in Dallas. There
wasn't arms
trafficking, it was
??????? and could have been part of the plot to assassinate
Kennedy. That
is the information we have
on these subjects.
Now, ELADIO DEL VALLE. He worked for two police services -
military intelligence
and the
traditional police. He was in charge of narcotics. He was
also a legislature
in the government - a
representative. He was from a little town from the south of
Havana. He was
a captain in the merchant
marines. In 1958 he was doing business dealings with SANTOS
TRAFFICANTE in
a little coastal
town south of Havana. There he brought in contraband whose
destination was
SANTOS
TRAFFICANTE. When the revolution triumphed, he went to
Miami., ELADIO DEL
VALLE went to
Miami. He settled in Miami, we don't know the address and he
allied himself
with ROLANDO
MASFERRER and other Batista supporters and they formed an
organization called
the Anti
Communist Cuban Liberation Movement. From that moment on,
ELADIO was involved
in many
project against Cuba. But as I told you yesterday, we
managed to penetrate
this organization. And we
came to know of a lot of projects, efforts, for an invasion
of Cuba in secret.
In order to provide arms
to internal rebel groups, they needed DAVID FERRIE as the
pilot on these
flights. In 1962. ELADIO
DEL VALLE tried to infiltrate Cuba with a commando group of
22 men but their
boat had an English
key - a little island. In the middle of 1962. Of course, we
knew this. I
tell you about this, because one
of our agents who was one of the people helping to bring
this group to Cuba,
was a man of very little
education. They talked English on many occasions on this
little island with
DEL VALLE.. DEL
VALLE told this person , on many occasions, that Kennedy
must be killed to
solve the Cuban
problem. After that we had another piece of information on
ELADIO DEL VALLE.
This was offered
to us be CUESTA. He told us that ELADIO DEL VALLE was one of
the people involved
in the
assassination plot against Kennedy. As you know, he was
taken prisoner and
he was very thankful to
be taken back - he was blind.
?____________: Are they written? Tony CUESTA said that DEL
VALLE and who
else?
?____________: Are the statements of CUESTA written or
taped?
Escalante: Written by the interrogator.
?____________: The declarations that were made by CUESTA,
when was that?
Escalante: Early 1978. In August he was set free. I have it
written. I had
several conversations with
him. Interviews to speak about different things. We didn't
question him about
this because we didn't
know about his involvement. We were just trying to question
and this came
out. Cuban exiles in
Miami, somebody was arrested in 1966 and he told us a little
of this history.
His plan, his projects.
?____________: 1978 - wouldn't that have been about the same
time the congressional
committee
went to Havana? If it was before, was this information given
tot he committee?
Escalante: No. He asked that this information not be public.
I am only saying
it here, because he is
already dead. It is finished. We didn't have any other kind
of information
to give. There are some
things you must respect. He gave us this information and in
1978 we didn't
know if it was true or not.
In 1978, we were not aware of the participation of ELADIO
DEL VALLE. We didn't
know who he
was. Remember that I explained to you yesterday that when
the Select Committee
when they came to
Havana - they didn't give us any specific information. They
just came to
question us. We didn't know
the relationships.
?____________: Can the written report now be supplied?
Escalante: I am sorry. I cannot do this. Because it is a
Cuban document.
I am just telling you what I
know. I speak of these things. I didn't have the authority
to do that.
?____________: Could we begin a process? Tony CUESTA was
released as part
of a general .....
END TAPE 4
Copyright
1998-2014 Cuban Information Archives. All Rights
Reserved.
