DOCUMENT  0027-3

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TAPE 3 of 8

7/9 DECEMBER 1995


?____________: ....this afternoon is DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS and other CIA figures. The questions
from U.S. side to our Cuban colleagues is, "Do they have any evidence to confirm that PHILLIPS
was, indeed, MAURICE BISHOP? Any information... anything linking PHILLIPS with the
assassination and what about information on DAVE MORALES and other figures... other CIA... and
information linking them to JOHNNY ROSELLI?"

And, I'm sure that we have... their questions to us, which we'll get to later, are essentially the same, so
what about the operations of the CIA in Mexico under David Atlee Phillips? And, do we have
information on the organization... the JM/WAVE station in Miami? How did this phase interact with
those involving ZR/RIFLE and Operation 40? And, I know that some of you do have information on
that, but, if we can turn first to the Cuban side and ask about their information on David Atlee Phillips
and various other CIA figures...

Escalante: with informants... contact with Phillips in '58 and '59... Salvat .... Lopez... Antonio
Veciana... Had contact with Phillips during that time.

?____________: What was the first name? Salvat?

Escalante: According to informant, this relationship was valid... Antonio Veciana gave him a
message... It's not known what the message was about...

Nunez: He told us he didn't know what the message was about.

?____________: He didn't remember the message?

Nunez: He didn't read it... He come to Veciana's office in Havana...

Escalante: As is known, David Phillips was in CIA operations in Cuba in '58, '59, and '60. We don't
know much of the relationship between Phillips and Antonio Veciana.

Nunez: We didn't know at that time.

Abramson: At that time.

Escalante: This relation.

Nunez: Conspiracy.

Abramson: Conspirator relationship.

Escalante: In this era there was an event of which we knew about later, but not at this time. In the late
1980's we came into contact with an informant who had known Phillips and who had contact with
Phillips in 58-59. This person told us about three Cubans who had had contact with Phillips at this time.
[Juan] Manuel Salvat, Isidro Borja and Antonio Veciana.

?____________: What was the first name again? Is this Salvat of DRE Salvat?

Escalante: Manuel Salvat, si, si! [yes, yes]

Escalante: This informant whose name I cannot provide to you only told us that there was this
relationship between these three Cubans and Phillips. According to this informant this relationship
was the following:

Nunez: No, he knew about this relationship such as he is going to tell.

Escalante: Veciana.... According to Antonio Veciana, Phillips gave him a message. It is not known
what the message was about.

Nunez: No, no, no... Oh, sorry. The message was given to this person, this informant, from Veciana...
from Phillips to Veciana, but he didn't know what the message was, at least he told us that he didn't
know what the message was.

?____________: Could we try that, I didn't understand.

Abramson: Ya, I didn't understand.

?____________: He didn't remember the message?

Nunez: He didn't read it, he was just the messenger.

Escalante: The informant was a messenger between Veciana...

?____________: From Phillips to Veciana?

Nunez: From Phillips to Veciana.

Escalante: The other two people, Borja and ... Salvat, used to come to Veciana's office in Havana
very often... frequently. Phillips had an office in Havana, a population office in Havana. That was el
Jumbo 106, Humbo street, a public office where you could just come and visit. The informant saw
Salvat and Isidro Borja in this public office. He knew who they were because they sort of _________
characters in something that happened in the soviet prime minister Nicoya? ____________. So he
showed him pictures of this incident that happened... He didn't recognize their faces, names, he
recognized their faces from the photograph, he didn't know who they were by name.

Nunez: They could have been known, but it's not only that he knew about the names but he also knew
that this person was the person of ?_______, he identified the person as ?_______________

Escalante: Phillips left Cuba in the middle or the end of 1960, we're not quite sure, but they came to
know that he was in Miami shortly after. And we came to know about his relationship with Radio...
Swan. He was managing a program in the information service of this radio station. Afterward, we
came to know about Phillips when he was in Mexico. The information we had of him in Mexico was
scant, it was pretty poor, we didn't know much about him. We knew he was there, we didn't know what
he was doing. After that we knew that he was in Santo Domingo, the Dominican Republic. Again we
didn't know what he was doing there. And the first information from agents we have about Phillips is
from the year 1966, seven. In London he conversed with one of our agents recruited by the CIA. His
name Nicolas Sirgado. S-I-R-G ... Sirgado.

?____________: He was a Cuban agent or CIA?

Nunez: He was a Cuban agent recruited by the CIA.

?____________: A Cuban agent recruited by the CIA.

Abramson: In London.

?____________: A double agent.

Nunez: A double agent, that's it.

Escalante: Our agents spoke with him in the King George hotel in London. From this point onward we
had periodic contact with him every few months until 1972. So you know, the CIA was trying to send
him in one direction, we were trying to send him in the other direction. What was the main reason,
fundamental reason, why we had this conversation with Phillips?

Nunez: The main reason we know that Phillips was having this conversation, and I will let you know
later on why we knew of this.

Escalante: He was mainly interested in Fidel, his trips. The structure of the Cuban government.
Information about the people that were around Fidel Castro. He was introduce himself with a sir
name, Harold Benson. However, he used to smoke a pipe that had an initial that could be an H or M.

?___________: M or H?

Escalante: Ah, an M and a B.

?____________: H and B.

Escalante: Or could be an H and a B, H and B, or M and B, could be either one. That is something our
agent informed us of. We did a spoken picture of this Harold Benson as we do always. But we didn't
know really know who he was. In 1972, this CIA official had an interview with our agent. Our agent at
that time had a different case official. But this man came as a.... as a leader, as a boss or something.
Had an interview with our agent. This interview was... took place in Mexico they were just having a
few drinks. In between, Kennedy [Kennedy's name] came into the conversation they were talking
about... into the conversation, not Kennedy came to, into... So when the subject comes up this
character explains to our agent that after Kennedy's death, he visited his grave and peed on it and
said he [JFK] was a communist and such and such. We still didn't know who Harold Benson was but
when Claudia Furiati did her research, among the people we interviewed was this agent. We showed
him a group of photographs. Plus we already knew about David Phillips. I'm speaking of 92 and 93.
And the photograph that we showed him was a photograph of David Phillips. And so he pointed out as
Harold Benson. This is all the information I can give you. There are some other informations.

?____________: Do you recall the other photographs you showed him at that time?

Escalante: I remember that it was Tracy Barnes. For example all the we took all the photographs that
were published in the Invisible Government. [] David Wise.

Escalante: He took the photographs from the book and put them to the side. We included Cuban
people that were there, but with photographs from those years. This is something you often do when
you are doing something like this. I think there were twelve photographs that were shown to them.

Winslow: Was one of them Paul Bethel, by any chance?

Escalante: No, no, no, Paul Bethel no...

Winslow: He didn't show him that.

Escalante: Tracy Barnes, Robert Hammery [were the only two I remember]. They were mainly in the
book -- Wise book.

I was telling you we have so much information. In 1979 Bercia told to one of our own informants in
Miami that he had been pushed by a select committee that he had given a fake name to the CIA
officer that was in charge of him. He had given the name of Maurice Bishop. But, truly the official that
had to deal with him was David Phillips.

A third information comes from Mr. Manuel Rodriguez. Manuel Rodriguez truly, we didn't know who
he was. We heard about Manuel Rodriguez when we started to do research on Oscar Berot on
account of what information was received from the __________ hotel. Oscar Berot is the second
surname of Manuel Rodriguez

and in our organization the index is always made by the first surname not by the second one. But when
we found out that Oscar Berot was Manuel Rodriguez, then we found another interesting information.
Manuel Rodriguez, Oscar Berot told one of our agents, first of all that he was in Dallas because he
was the officer 66 [Alpha-66] delegate in Dallas. And he was the delegate for office 66 in Dallas and if
anyone came to know that he and Bercian took part in the plot to kill Kennedy. They were going to be
killed. He was already living in Puerto Rico or a little after that he went to live in Puerto Rico. And
another information comes from a very close person of Bercian, I think... some of you have already
interviewed. This person told us that Phillips threatened Bercian in order for him to not reveal his true
identity. I'm not going to reveal his name, but I will only tell you that some of you have had interviews
with this person (don't talk about it) ?__________________ I cannot reveal this on account of an
ethics principle for the same cause, because some of you will not make such revelations.

These are the moments in which we have found in relation to Maurice Bishop and David Phillips of
course there was a very wide investigation made by ________________? where he also had had lots
of trucks and I think there's no doubt about both persons are the same. I'm going to tell you an
anecdote. This thing about using fake names is very complicated. The CIA in Havana has a book of
Cuban officials. And in that book I appear in two different books. I have my own name and I appear
with my fake name and I think that they already know that I am the same person, but when we
discovered that there were two different people. Those things happen.

About David Phillips, I can't add anything that you don't know. I think this is wide information about
him. And most of all his activities against Cuba and against the revolutionary movement of Latin
America with characters such as Howard Hunt. As you well know he was the head of the Watergate. I
think there is something that... that the only thing that is an official document from the CIA saying yes
both persons were the same. But I don't think there must be any doubt it's the same person. This is
what I can add to what you already know [in this case]. Excuse me, about David Morales. David
Morales, we knew him in 1960. He was another _________ from the United States Embassy in
Havana and he was linked to another official, an American official from the embassy Robert
VanHorn. He was a major in a conspiracy with Rolando Masferrer and a North American citizen
Geraldine Chapman. This was a plot to kill Fidel Castro to promote an armed uprising. This plot
started in 1959 and our agent, which is already dead was a man that had lived many years in New
Orleans and then lived in Miami in 1959, and he was named Luis Tacornal. And also there was
another agent that was his partner in New Orleans and had always things to do with the case, and he's
still alive in Cuba. He was an official of security whose name was Jose Veiga Pena

?____________: What was the first one?

Nunez: Luis Tacornal

?____________: Taconal?

Nunez: Tacornal, coronal.

?____________: and the other is Veiga Pena?

Nunez: Veiga Pena... Veiga, with an e, ei, Veiga.

Escalante: This plot really started in the United States.

and it started when Masferrer pointed out Luis Tacornal as his link with Cuba. In the meeting there
was a person that you know Eladio del Valle Gutierrez and our agent traveled once to Washington
with Eladio del Valle because Masferrer was not able to leave the Miami city [Masferrer was under
an INS order not to leave] and that he had a meeting with Colonel King to coordinate an invasion that
was getting ready to come to Cuba maybe from the Batistianos. By the end of 1959 Luis Tacornal is in
Havana with Jose Veiga and the contacts that are given to him by the embassy are Colonel VanHorn
and David Morales but mainly VanHorn

they only saw once Morales and they would go frequently to the embassy and have meetings with
VanHorn with Geraldine Chapman, she was a North American

?_____________: Is that Shamron?

Escalante: Chapman.

?____________: Chapman. It's nothing to do with Geraldine Shama/ Sharma, who was also...

Escalante: It could be the same. It could be the same, it could be the same, maybe it's a pronunciation
thing, I don't know. Sharma Chapman?

Abramson: Chapman, with CH or Sharma with SH?

Nunez: He thinks it is the same person, could be Sharma or Chapman.

?____________: There was a woman who wrote about her time in Cuba, spelled it Shamna.

Escalante: To my memory, it didn't have an L. She was arrested in Cuba in November 1960; she
should be the same.

The plot had as a main operative to kill Fidel Castro in Ramiro Valdez house at that time he was the
head of the security service. In February 1960 there was an official from the [CIA] headquarters
called Luis C. Herber to supervise the operation. Of course we made this operation fail. We have
penetration of all the organizations and in November all the people in the plot were arrested except
for the diplomatic, of course. And this was published in the Cuban press. They were on trial in it.
There is another moment when we knew about David Morales. In 1973 we arrested one of the CIA
agents that used to be a member of the Batista police he was recruited in 1958. He was called
Francisco Munoz Olivette and he told us about the official that was in charge but of course he had a
different name, a woman surname, Moralma. We didn't know who he was. However, he was sure that
it was someone who had worked in the embassy. So we showed him the photographs of the people
working in the embassy. I don't know if wine was there or not, in the photographs, but identified David
Morales as Moralma. He told us in those days, I mean, I mean Francisco Munoz Olivette, but in
several moments Morales or Moralma had told him about a plot against Fidel Castro's life that he
had headed in 1959. And that this plot was going on, to be carried out in the headquarters of the
military air force. We never knew who this person was. But after having so much information in our
hands we think that this could be Frank Sturgis because Frank Sturgis was in a plot with Fidel in the
Air Force with Jerry Hemming and with Pedro Luis Diaz Lanz and the last information on Morales.
We have it from Cubela. Cubela told us when he was arrested that he had interviews with at least
three CIA officials from Latin origin. In different moments we didn't know who they were but in 1978
in Havana there was a youth festival and there was an activity that had to do with an explanation to
the youth about the CIA activities against Cuba. Cubela agreed on going to this meeting to explain
which were his activities with the CIA in those days. It was published by the Grama magazine
newspaper several histories about CIA activities, one of them was this one about Francisco Munoz,
where David Morales photograph was shown.

Once, I remember I personally was talking to Cubela and Cubela told me that this was one of the
officials that spoke with me in Paris. Well, the conversation with Cubela was very... informal. I say
very informal because he was a person you couldn't do big things with; he said he had already been
sentenced. I asked him what had he told him. He said, No he was interested in knowing how could we
kill Fidel. But I... I thought he was a very vulgar man. So I told him I didn't want to talk with him or
that if he was to do it, it would have to take place in September of 1963. And this is what we know
about Morales.

?____________: Getting back to David Phillips. Veciana told me when I interviewed him in 1976
about, and I'll just read you the quote, of exactly what he said. It is about, ah, his cousin, who is Luis.

"Yes", it says, "I had a cousin, Guillermo Ruiz who worked with the Cuban intelligence service in
Mexico City after the assassination sometime early in 1964 Bishop said to me that I think by getting
my cousin a considerable amount of money would he say he talked to Oswald to make it appear
Oswald was working for Castro because of this I asked Bishop if it was true Oswald had been talking
to Castro agents. Bishop said it did not matter if it was true what was important was to get my cousin
to make that statement".

So my question is did you ever speak to, is this, do you know anything more about this? Did you ever
speak to Guillermo Ruiz about this?

Escalante: Yes, of course we have. We knew about this interview from this book about the
investigation of the select committee and we had an interview with Guillermo Ruiz in 1963, Guillermo
Ruiz. In August 1963, he was appointed to commercial (?) of the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City.

?____________: In Mexico City?

Escalante: In Mexico City.

He told me that when he arrived in Mexico a group of Cubans were waiting for him at the airport to
welcome him, an act of repudiation, yes that's it. Guillermo Ruiz never worked for the Cuban
intelligence. He was not an official of Cuba. He was not really a cousin to Veciana. Veciana's cousin
was his wife. Guillermo Ruiz's wife. Guillermo Ruiz. So also is one of the persons who saw Oswald at
the embassy, he will explain that when he gets to Oswald.

?____________: Ruiz saw Oswald at the embassy?

Escalante: Yes. There is one moment when he gets there and then you see Eusebio Azcue having a
big discussion with Oswald in the last interview they have. He had an office on the top of the consulate
and when Guillermo is about to pass through Guillermo spoke better English than Azcue. Azcue
please explain to this gentleman that I cannot give him a visa to go to Cuba if he doesn't have a visa
from Moscow. So Guillermo looked at him and he is one of the persons that confirmed that he saw
Oswald in our Cuban consulate. This is what we know.

When we read this story told by Veciana, it looks very strange to us. We, in our book, have a chapter
it is dedicated to the press campaign that was started before and after the Kennedy assassination to
blame Cuba. However, there is a moment in December in 1963 after the Warren commission was
appointed and this company started to go lower, and lower still because they were just not
interviewed, I think. On the other hand, some other events which had happened in Cuba, didn't happen
to us it has always had very few meaning in 1964. Maurice Bishop gives this task to Veciana because
this was out of the context of the moment, (?) the most important moment. We have some other theory
about it. And we believe that the meeting Veciana speaks of in September of 1963 was for that was to
try to recruit Guillermo Ruiz.

?____________: He tried to recruit Ruiz?

Escalante: (?) the meeting between Oswald, Veciana and Phillips in 63, September 63, was really to
try to recruit Guillermo Ruiz

?____________: How so? I don't really understand.

Escalante: Let me explain. A few days before Kennedy's assassination, Guillermo Ruiz's wife walks
from her house to the Cuban embassy. She was about 200 feet in from the entrance of the embassy,
she looks at the..a big bunch of dollars on the sidewalk.

?____________: A big bunch of what?

Nunez: Dollars

?____________: Dollars?

Nunez: Dollars on the sidewalk.

Escalante: And a Mexican person. She recalls that it was a Mexican person from the accent and tells
her, lady this money is yours. She gets scared because there are the two people coming to approach
her, so she starts running for the embassy asking for help. When people from our embassy went to the
same place, no money nor the people were there anymore. Obviously, this is not something normal.
Imagine finding a big bunch of money in the middle of Mexico City. For us this had never had an
explanation and I think that the only explanation that we can give is a form to try to recruit her.

Lechuga: She was a cousin of Veciana.

Escalante: As you know, in front of our embassy there was a photographic post from the CIA. That
was handled by the Cuban CIA agent.

Lechuga: Hugo Cesar Rodriguez Gallegos

Escalante: Hugo Cesar Rodriguez Gallegos, a Cuban. I imagine, if she ever takes that money she was
going to have photographs taken of her grabbing the money. And that was a moment to compromise,
that it would be easy to talk to Guillermo Ruiz, show him the photos; if you don't collaborate these
photos will be published.

Smith: I don't understand how Phillips having Veciana in Dallas see him with Oswald has to do with
the recruitment effort against Ruiz

Escalante: I'm going to say once more. Veciana told to Fonzi and Russell, that in January of 1964 his
case officer, Maurice Bishop made a promise to recruit Guillermo Ruiz for him, to say that Oswald
was a Cuban agent. That was out of context, out of moment, because in January 1964 the campaign
against Cuba has lowered down, diminished. So we think that the true reason of the interview enter
Veciana, Oswald and Maurice Bishop in Dallas, in September 1963 could have been that, or probably
would have been that, and simply Veciana was given the information out of context, out of date to mix
up everybody and to give only part of the truth, not the whole truth, not the same that happened in
September, but in January 64. That is what we assumed even more logical that this (?) was in
September and there was a plot to try to include Guillermo Ruiz. He doesn't have any sense would
have wanted to put him in after murdering, but before...

Abramson: Would anyone like to...

Fonzi: I would like to... we have a slight disagreement on you know why... Why Phillips... General
Escalante believes deliberately had Veciana see him with Oswald and I still tend to believe, as a
result, the manner in which the information came up originally in the interview, that it was a mistake
on Phillips part. Now Phillips was not a man who did not make mistakes in his history. Joseph B.
Smith, of the CIA, who wrote the book told me, I think he told Tony Summers also that he recall
Phillips making two very bad mistakes in the course of his career one was in Havana when he was
caught in the house of prostitutes and called the American Embassy even though he was supposedly
not connected to the agency. And another story that Smith tells is that at one point Phillips was
supposed to have a meeting with a Russian in a restaurant and Phillips was asked to bring some
bonapita, and he did, and then on leaving he left his briefcase on a chair. So the point is that Phillips,
despite being a sophisticated spy, did make mistakes. The other factor I find difficult to find an
answer to involves the basis of Veciana's talking to me in the first place. I did not tell Veciana when I
first approached him that I was interested in the Kennedy assassination. At the time I was working for
Senator Schweiker who was on the Senate Intelligence Committee and my approach to all the Cubans
I interviewed at the time was that I was interested in the relationship between the CIA and
anti-Castro Cuban groups. And it was on that basis that Veciana began talking with me. When I had
originally gone to see Veciana and discovered Veciana, as a result of a suggestion by Paul Hoch out in
California, who had written an article for the Saturday Evening Post I think, suggesting that it may
have been Veciana who had visited (?)_____________. Hoch sent an advance copy, actually sent a
manuscript of the article, and I was unaware that it had been published in the Post already. So when I
was trying to work the interview around to the Kennedy assassination. Without being very blatant
about it, I asked Veciana whether Alpha 66 had branches in other cities and then whether or not they
happen to have one in Dallas and Veciana said... I said, then I asked him had he ever been to Dallas
at that house and Veciana said "yes, I have been there and now you are going to ask me whether I
saw Oswald there". And I said, "Why would I ask you that?" He said "because I just read it in the
Saturday Evening Post". I have it here in the bedroom. And he went to the bedroom and took it out.
So the subject of Oswald came up in that manner, not by any direct question, and so I have trouble
trying to figure out why Veciana would even bring up Oswald, why if he was involved in the
assassination, why he would even link himself to the Kennedy assassination with me at all even
though he told me everything about Bishop. He didn't have to tell me about the meeting with Oswald
at all.

Escalante: But let's take the facts. I said he was a hypocrite.

Let's go back to the facts. The CIA. We are not going to identify any names, thought that Guillermo
Ruiz was an official from the Cuban intelligence service. That is something that has been proved.
Guillermo Ruiz was in the city of Mexico from August 1963. His wife is Veciana's cousin. They both
are (?)______________. That is the second part.

The third part.. The information that Veciana gives you that he had had an interview with his case
official in September 1963 in Dallas and that he saw there a men that looked like Oswald, that he later
identified as Oswald. The fourth fact, is that Guillermo Ruiz's wife was a provocation to her, a few
days before Kennedy's assassination. The fifth point, Veciana tells that in January 1964 his case
official in Mexico makes him a proposition to try to recruit Guillermo Ruiz for him to confirm that
Oswald is a Cuban agent. These five facts obviously happened. All the information that we have
available, is that these five things happened. The only thing I give you is that the order in which this
timing in this facts, is not the one that Veciana says it was... No the way he said it was.

?____________: Possibly the way it was. I may be mistaken, because I haven't reviewed my notes on
this but my recollection is that Veciana told me, that Bishop shortly after the assassination made the
proposal to him to contact Ruiz. Later he said there was a CIA agent who came to him and asked him
to try and recruit Ruiz and Veciana said he made an attempt to reach Ruiz in Spain. Was he in Spain
at some point?

Escalante: Yes.

?____________: And they are two separate things?

Escalante: It was in 1967

?____________: I don't remember

Escalante: I have Guillermo Ruiz's statement.

?____________: Was that... when he was in Spain?

Nunez: Yes, in 1967.

?____________: In 67.

Escalante: And he made another proposition. He made a proposition to trade the hands of
______________ for the liberation of one person in prison. It's a different operation and there's one
sixth fact when I talk about five that David Phillips, when he heard of the operation against Cuba in
Mexico in 1962. There are a group of coincidences that make me think that the order of this facts, in
this case, they do make a different final result and has been changed.

?____________: I have to change the emphasis slightly and I do so despite my great respect for the
work done today _____, but what you just said is to me is the most important thing. That we know that
Phillips was in charge of operations against Cuba in Mexico City, in the period when so much
happened down there in respect to Oswald. There is the second thing we know about Phillips that is
even bigger, more obvious, and that is that Phillips had been in charge of this information about the
assassination since it happened and if there is a single key to this disinformation it is to blame the
assassination on Cuba. And it seems to me that we should talk primarily about this and only in this
context come back to the Veciana story. I would like to make two observations. One is that at the
time that the Maurice Bishop story began, Phillips had caught the public eye and therefore Phillips in
a sense had a reason to start creating disinformation about himself and his own role. Another point
which I think is relevant, is that at a certain point and I (?) to know better than me, is that Veciana
was shot through the head. It is important what year that was. It was in 1973. July 1973. I spoke to
him myself by telephone, not long after this. And he said to me, I know who you are. I would be... it
would be interesting to talk to you but consider this, I have just been shot through the head.

ALL: (laughter)

?____________: And there is a point there.

Escalante: That's a very strong point. Would you offer to be shot through the head? I would like to
talk about what you are speaking of.

?____________: Let me back up a bit. Did he ask me a question?

Nunez for Escalante: No, he would like to say something in response to what you just said. He does
not think, we cannot analyze the events isolated. I have just affirmed, and I took one side that Phillips
could have been in charge of the disinformation operation. And let us think from another angle the
events that are going to happen in Dallas in that days, September, October 1963. We are going to
relate what has happened. Now we know that Manuel Rodriguez Escarderos founded an organization
in Dallas in September in 1963. And we also know that Manuel Salvat was there in October 1963, in
Dallas [and] was involved in an arms program. And we also know that in September that was Silvia
Odio's incident and we all know that. According to Silvia one day two persons arrived to meet her, a
Cuban and a North American that presented himself, represented himself as Lee Oswald and two
persons that could have been Cubans or Mexicans, No? We have done some research about this. But
there is a character who calls our attention, which I mentioned this morning is Isodro Borja Simo.
Because Isodro Borja Simo was born in Mexico. He came in the early 50's to Cuba and he became an
engineer. And after the triumph of the revolution he was linked to Salvat's group.

?____________: DRE? DRE, Directorio.

Nunez: DRE, yes, directorate, he was looking for another name, but he can't remember now

?____________: Directorio Estudiante...

?____________: Another name?

Nunez: No, he was thinking of a name, the name of someone at the head of the DRE.

Escalante: The first head of the DRE.

?____________: Traviesa?

Escalante: Traviesa, no, no, one that came to Cuba, before Giron and was Veciana Majestradon,
guerillas. In a little while (?)___________ The point is that Isidro Borja joined this group and had to
get into an embassy a Latin American Embassy, with somebody really well-known and Ricardo
Morales Navarrete.

?____________: There's more?

Escalante: Oh no, there's more, "es muy interesante". He is a very interesting person, a lot of
people. If we look at exhibit one in Warren Commission where Oswald is seen, giving away
pamphlets. Behind Oswald, I think it was left corner, it looks like there is a man, very low, short.

?____________: Short?

?____________: Short.

Escalante: That looks like a Mexican person. And that could have been Isidro Borja, I don't know
whether he is alive.

?____________: Can we talk about the photo in New Orleans?

?____________: Yes.

Escalante: Exhibit one photo from the Warren Commission, the photo.

Escalante: Ya mataron a Viviela...

Lesar: Si, estalo de Viviela y seguro...

Escalante: And Carlos Bringuier, exhibit 1. I cannot say that it is the same person, because the
photograph is not very good. The photo we have from Isidro Borja is from the 50's, but no doubt that it
is a person, that looks like a Mexican, but used to speak like a Cuban. It is an interesting fact that we
should take into account.

?____________: Did he spend time in Mexico in the early, in 1962 or 63, or was he ever linked to
Alpha 66?

Escalante: Yes. Yes, he was in Mexico City in 62-63. Yes, con Alpha 66?

Escalante: That I don't know, if he was linked with Alpha 66. We knew he was linked with the DRE.

?: The DRE.

?: And he was in Mexico City in 62-63?

N: In 62-63.

Escalante: But we do not know if he had links in Alpha 66. The only thing that I want to point out is
that both incidents, that when told by Veciana the Odio incident and the DRE incident, in Dallas

E: Yo no lo veria de (?)

?: DRE

N: DRE incident in Dallas.

?: D-R-E.

N: D-R-E, yes

?: Oh, DRE, ok

Escalante: I did not see them isolated. In a disinformation operation you cannot see them separate.
For instance, I have thought a lot about why this visit to Silvia Odio, why Silvia Odio's father, Amador
Odio, he was imprisoned [in Cuba]. Amador Odio was one of the founders of the MRP. Manolo Ray
left Cuba at the end of the 60's. Manolo Ray was a social democrat and when he got to Miami, into
exile, he found a very strong opposition for the CIA for him to belong to the revolutionary Cuban
council. And after Giron he was put apart from this council. But moreover, the CIA made... some
contacts with their agency in Cuba in order to take him out, this representation in the outside.
Something that had really happened, Manolo Ray after the missile crisis, some contacts happened
between Ray and some of the Kennedy administration officials and Ray had already founded the

_________?: JURE, JURE

Nunez: JURE, that's it, JURE

_________?: Junta Revolucionaria

Nunez: Junta Revolucionaria, esta bien.

Escalante: And this group started the privileged, by the administration. I think, what I didn't know the
plans for this administration is that we should take into account what we spoke about this morning. In
the case of negotiation between the United States and Cuba. The United States would have to have
something of his hand to impose him to Cuba. They were going to demand that somebody would be a
part of that new government to be established in Cuba and who would be better than Manolo Ray,
who used to be a minister in that government. Manolo Ray, that was a person that didn't have good
relations with the CIA. He was a social democrat. And it turns out to be that Silvia Odio belongs to the
same group. So I could think that Oswald's presence, and Emilio Cordo (?)______________ might
have some link to some involvement of JURE? as Castro agents... who is a Castro agent that later
would kill Kennedy. So I think all these episodes have to be seen related one to another. For instance,
I think the same way you... some of you do that Oswald was taken to a trap from the very beginning.
But he was penetrating a Castro group that wanted to kill Kennedy. But I don't think that Veciana had
anything to do with it. I think that people that had to do with that, are people in the DRE, the DRE,
but here I am just... using some technical... because when you are going to carry out an operation as
complex as this one, you cannot put all your money in one single horse. You have to use different
ways in order not to have any mistakes. And obviously, the DRE was in the whole plot against Cuba.
Again, this was the organization that was ________

Fonzi: I would like to share two small pieces of information... ah, with the Cuban side. One is from the
new releases and that is the date that Phillips became in charge of anti-Cuban operations in Mexico
City. We now have the cable from headquarters to the station. He was there of course already. I'm
not entirely sure in what capacity, maybe counter intelligence, certainly the local leftist file that you
have commented... Sorry?

?____________: Cuban covert actions.

Fonzi: Covert actions?

?____________: Ya

Fonzi: And we know that he had the local leftist file from June Cobb... the June Cobb documents. But
we now know that it was in the days immediately following Oswald's departure October 1; it begins
October 1. No, he is a TDY, he doesn't get back till the 9th, the 7th, 8th, or the 9th. He is TDY the 7th
thru the 9th. Right, and he returns at that point as the chief of anti-Cuban operations...

Nunez: I can't translate this, because I couldn't understand it.

Fonzi: It's in the first week of October 1963. Yes. And the CIA cable is specific about this point.

?____________: This is interesting. But what is also interesting is that he comes... he comes to D.C.
to pick up a package. Right... under a code name. And that's, that's in connection with the TDY
business I think. Explain that, TDY is temporary... Temporary duty, TDY means temporary duty. He
went to Washington and then Miami and then came back and was chief of operations. In military
terms, it means that he was stationed at one place, and then up to 90 days he was sent to another
place. That's temporary duty, TDY. Anyway, I just bring this up because I think it's interesting. Is
germane to the comments General Escalante was making. One other small point.

?____________: Excuse me... I want to interject while you are talking about chronology, an
interesting point is when Howard Hunt sued A. J. Weberman they took a deposition from Phillips.
Phillips said mostly nothing in all the questioning. But what de did admit was that, he might have been
in Dallas, at least the Dallas airport, in early September, 1963.

Escalante: La primera mitad?

_________?: On September

Nunez: On September or in September?

_________?: September, early September.

Nunez: Ah, Septiembre.

?_________: The other point I wanted to share is not from a document, but from an interview.
Actually, it began with a mutual friend of many of us here, his name is Larry Haapanen. A good
researcher who is not written in the books, who had an occasion many years ago where James Hosty
visited his class. And they discussed the Silvia Odio incident. And at that time, Mr. Hosty, who as you
know was an FBI agent watching Oswald. At that time, Hosty told the class, that he thought the
visitors to Odio's house were agents of William Pawley. More recently, I had occasion to talk with
Mr. Hosty. At present he will not talk to any of us including me, but before I was very far into doing
research for my book he called me and did not know I was researching for a book. He was asking me
for some information. I took the opportunity to ask him some questions, including, this piece about the
Odio visit. And he reiterated again, that that was his feeling. I don't have any documents. But I find...

?____________: You took notes?

?____________: I took notes, and I find this an interesting observation by the same token, because it
would fit, would it not? If you had the right wing elements investigating the left wing elements, and as
you say, perhaps even with the view to do something more nasty than that

?____________: I'd like to touch on something that Peter brought up earlier because I've felt now for
several years that one of the ways, perhaps the only way, that you can get a handle on the Kennedy
assassination is to carefully analyze the disinformation aspect after the assassination, and see if that
gave you any clues as to who might be involved. And I think that we should maybe take a little time
here and go over some of those incidents and see whether or not they relate to Phillips. I think there
are some of them that are well known. I guess perhaps the most well-known is the one involving how
Hendrix, who, on the afternoon of the assassination leaves a message for Seth Kantor to call him. And
later Kantor learns that Hendrix was trying to give him information about Oswald's background. That
seems to be an obvious candidate for an attempt to plant information that would paint Oswald in a
way...favorable to those who would want to make him a patsy. And I believe that we know that
Hendrix had a relationship with David Phillips

I think probably Gavin or Tony can probably fill in more on that.

But I would like to hear a discussion on the specific incidents of disinformation after the assassination.
There's the Alvarado incident.

?____________: It's another..., on the Hendrix thing, we interviewed him a year or two ago in
connection with the Frontline Program.

Nunez: I'm sorry, I can't hear...

?____________: We interviewed him a couple of years ago in connection with a television program
called Frontline. And he now claims that he could not even remember the journalist that he told this
information to, let alone having talked about the information. Which is very implausible, because it
was his contribution on the afternoon of the assassination. I was involved in history, but I don't
remember how.

ALL: (laugh)

?____________: I was there. What also interests me about that is that of course the information about
Oswald's connections to the Assassination Cuban Committee, and so on, would have come up. What
seems to have been important was for them to get the information out very quickly, like within hours
after the assassination, and that is in itself (?)_____________

Winslow: I have a couple here on Monkey Morales. You've brought his name up, and then you just
left me hanging here.

Escalante: The only thing I said was he went into exile with somebody, in this history.

Winslow: OK, that's fine. What was... what were the dates of his work with the Cuban intelligence, and
what did he actually do?

Escalante: Ricardo Morales you mean?

Winslow: I'm talking about Morales Navarrete, Ricardo Morales Navarrete

Escalante: He never worked with our Cuban intelligence

He worked for the Cuban police. There is a difference.

Winslow: The civil police?

Escalante: The criminal police.

Winslow: The FBI? or the...

Escalante: The FBI, the criminal police. They are very distinct. Morales no... como Tony Cuesta
worked for the police or Virjilio Dias worked for the CIA police. In 1959 all these people were in the

Winslow: He was there in '59 until when?

Escalante: Only until June of '59.

Winslow: And then he came to the United States?

Escalante: And then he came to the United States.

Winslow: Okay, and then he worked for what organization?

Escalante: He knows that he worked for the FBI.

Winslow: For the Central Intelligence Agency or the FBI?

Escalante: With the CIA.

Winslow: With the CIA. In '68 he was working for the FBI?

Escalante: It's possible, I do not know.

Winslow: I know that because he was an informant with a bug on him tape recording Orlando Bosch's
testimony which was repeated in a trial. Then he went... And then he went to Venezuela. And he wasn't
affiliated with Cuban intelligence in any manner?

Escalante: No, never.

Winslow: Do you believe that he supplied the explosive that blew up the Cubana airlines?

Escalante: He could have been.

Nunez: We know it was supplied, from which he took part

Escalante: But, we do not know which role each one played.

Winslow: He admitted that in a sworn deposition in Miami, a fourteen part, fourteen volume
deposition where he was... every bombing he ever did. But he says he worked for Cuban intelligence, DGI.

Escalante: Are you going to believe him?

Winslow: Well, the circumstances that indicate that he may have been telling the truth... Because he
also worked for the Mossad, the CIA, the FBI, and the Venezuelan secret police.

Escalante: First of all, you are preparing us with very high quality services, and remember, during
those early days we were just a bunch of young people that were no more than 25. But no, I can
assure you, he never worked for us. He never worked with Cuban intelligence office. At least to my
knowledge, at least to my knowledge.

Winslow: At least to his knowledge. O.K., now, does, did Cuban intelligence, or Cuba have anything to
do with the death of Roselli?

Escalante: Let me not say something terrible.

ALL: (laugh)

Winslow: I got, I'll show you later if you want to see it. I got a, I have a document that was just sent to
me by the Central Intelligence Agency, questions that were asked of them by homicide detectives in
Miami about the Roselli... And it is very interesting. I'll see you later on that.

Smith: I think that in our discussion this afternoon we should remember that tomorrow the
LaFontaines will be here, and they have special knowledge of what happened in Dallas. But, there are
some things that have come up here, and also this morning that pull everything together. What
concerns me is that sometimes we talk as if Borja and Morales, because they defected at the same
time are of the same politics?

?____________: I'd like to ask you a question. Is it not true that if you take the whole of the counter
revolutionary Cuban presence there is a right wing and a left wing? And you should place the DRE
over on the right wing and place Alpha, not only JURE, but also Alpha 66 over on the left wing?

Escalante: I wouldn't put Alpha 66 on the left. JURE yes, but Alpha no.

?____________: Well, there has been quite a lot of literature that has, for example, Rodriguez
Orcarberro has been called simultaneously Alpha 66 representative and also a DRE (?)

?____________: The second is false, I think.

?____________: And that, if we are trying to visualize what happened here that, as you said yourself,
these initiatives that the Kennedys were taking to create alliance with JURE were -- caused great
consternation in the right wing. And we will, at some point, be talking about John Martino. John
Martino, in December of '63, published an article and he said -- he talked about the well-known plot
between Khrushchev and Kennedy to install a left wing government in Cuba which he said would be
headed by Huber Matos and the Minutemen who were close to Martino. The Minutemen circulated a
document at the same time to the same effect and I think that what makes sense to me is that they,
either on their own or after instigation from the CIA, the right wing were saying if we don't, we not
only have to worry about Castro now, we have to worry about this new government that Kennedy is
planning to bring into Cuba

Escalante: About what you just said, I would like to read an article to you. An article that was
published in the United States and it's absolutely contradictory. But listening to you it begins to have
sense, some reason. This is an article that was published around September 28th. And it's called
("Los impulsionistas Anti-Castristas, construyen una fuerza area, mientras la CIA tiemble") "The
anti-Castro ______ are building an air force, which the CIA is shaking". This was published in the
Jackson Daily News, Jackson, Mississippi. It was signed by Robert Allen and Paul Scott. You know
the article?

?____________: No, but we know the authors. We have talked about this before.

Escalante: Here they say or they used to say That President Kennedy and his advisors on foreign
policy and very much compromised and several entries but, contradictory with anti-Castro in ....

Abramson: Cursionists? Cursionists, I guess. That sounds like that would be.

Escalante: It speaks about the organization of an air fleet to carry on excursions against Cuba,
actions against Cuba and that this Air Force is not officially under the United States control and that's
the way it says and that call my attention. He mentions a very interesting character, Alexander
Rorke, but at a certain moment, something that has no meaning is said...

Nunez: This very unusual consul.

Abramson: Sort of conjunction.

Nunez: No, no.

?____________: Disconcerting.

Nunez: Disconcerting events in the American policy.

Escalante: Comes in the moment when secret sources are sending around almost unbelievable news
of the next Cuban crisis. According to the news we cannot confirm the operation, control operation
should happen in Cuba in 1964 and secretly it's been organized by certain officials in Moscow, in
Havana, and Washington. The plan includes the use of Soviet troops in Cuba to control less as
possible the sparing of blood and uprising, forcing Kennedy to send troops to Cuba. To keep this
compromise, this promise of not allowing another Hungry in Cuba in front of the possibility for nuclear
war, by Cuba, the United Nations would be called for a cease fire so the United States and Russia
would agree and a correlation government would be started in Cuba including the communists, the
United States and Russia will use this new environment for some agreements including a nuclearized
zone in America. What do you think about that?

?____________: Who says it sounds like, sounds like an article that might be written by Mr. Remos
in the Diario de las Americas today.

Escalante: I recall your attention on one part. Who speaks about a concert is an agreement between
Washington and Havana and Moscow. They speak about the communist plot because with three, in a
group of three, when two are out, it's the third should be a (?). And this was published on September
28, 1963

?____________: After my book was published,

I received a phone call from someone that I came to consider... she sounded pretty reliable. And the
name that she mentioned to me as having been directly involved in the assassination was the CIA
agent, or officer, named Grayston Lynch. And I wondered if you ever had any information that might
have linked him to Phillips or any of the people.

?____________:(John): We got some information before the very first national conference of the
Coalition of Political Assassinations about a luncheon meeting between top former CIA officials which
are Richard Helms, William Colby Richard Helms, William Colby. I don't know if he is a high ranking,
or even former. But, Gus Russo was apparently there and he told some people that and they had a
concern about what was going to be presented in our conference and one of their main concerns, they
said, was with how we were going to deal with their friend David Atlee Phillips. Well it was, I think it
was Joe Goulden was also present at that meeting and he was exceptionally close to David Phillips.
And, in fact, is executor of David Phillips estate. And his history with Phillips goes way back, they are
both from Texas And I believe I saw some where in one of the releases made by the CIA a year or so
ago that Goulden grew up in the same town that David Phillips father was from I think it was
Marshall, Texas, or somewhere. Anyway, it was a long time relationship between Goulden and
Phillips. And Goulden has been extremely concerned about Phillips legacy

?____________: Goulden?

?____________: Goulden. It's spelled, G-O-U-L-D-E-N

?____________: Dave Goulden?

?____________: No, Joseph Goulden, Joseph...

?____________: Well, their strategy, as I understand it, as it was explained to me...

?____________: Goulden, if I could just add one other thing, Goulden is one of the two reporters, the
other being Lonnie Hudkins who broke the story that Oswald had an FBI informant number John,
were you going to say something? Ya, John.

?____________: If we are talking about disinformation and David Phillips in an attempt to pin the
blame on the assassination on Cuba I think it's time we discussed Silvia Duran's sex life for many
reasons the least of which is Mr. Lechuga sitting to my left here. And Anthony Summers, sitting over
there who on my behalf interviewed Silvia Duran just recently, but first of all let me say that, if it could
be shown that Silvia Duran...


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