8 October 1994
VIDEO INTERVIEW OF
OCTOBER 8, 1994
RELEASE AND QUALIFICATION
In a written letter Gaeton Fonzi outlines the following
"I hereby grant ... permission to disseminate, distribute or
about in whatever fashion they so chose, be it by voice,
or laser beam means, copies of the transcript, video and
which resulted from the interview conducted with me on
October 8, 1994,
that, beyond costs of material and time, NO COMMERCIAL gain
further provided that such distribution is not knowingly
made to anyone
any corporate entity who or which will further re-distribute
So dated Miami, FL October 17, 1994.
FORMAT OF INTERVIEW
Questions for the video interview were solicited through
CompuServe's JFK Forum, Internet, Prodigy, personal request
A total of 101 questions were submitted, grouped by subject
and submitted for review by Gaeton Fonzi prior to the
question was given an arabic numeral (1, 2, 3).
asked at the time of the interview are designated by an
by a letter in small case (1.a, 2.b, 3.c)
Gaeton Fonzi denied answers to certain questions either
were not within his expertise, or because the questions were
and not within the intention of the interview which is
stated by Mr.
at the onset of the video. (See video text for
Questions not addressed were questions 26-47, 50-55, 57, 63,
and are not included in the transcript since they are not
part of the
NOTE: Any text in brackets [ ... ] is either a
scribner's note or
addition/clarification by Gaeton Fonzi. Bracketed
items are not
of the video. Asterisks (*) were placed where words
deleted for grammatical errors and redundancy.
Gaeton Fonzi was born in Philadelphia on October 10,
1935. He was
in West New York, New Jersey, and was graduated with
the University of Pennsylvania in 1957. He served as
the U.S. Army Infantry and a Civil Affairs Reserve
briefly as a reporter with the Delaware County (Pa.) Daily
Times and as
associate editor with the Chilton Company.
In 1959, Fonzi joined Philadelphia magazine and was later
Fonzi won the magazine's first national journalism award and
100 major feature articles.
In 1972, Fonzi became editor of Miami magazine and senior
editor of its
publication, Gold Coast in Fort Lauderdale. In 1975,
on the basis
articles he had written on the subject while at Philadelphia
was asked by U.S. Senator Richard Schweiker, then a member
Select Committee on Intelligence, to become a staff
the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. In
invited to join the U.S. House Select Committee on
Assassinations as a
investigator. Later, as a special team director, he
a major appendix, Volume X, of the Committee's Final
his article for Washingtonian magazine, detailing the
of the Committee's investigation, received national media
the magazine record readership. Fonzi has been a
of Gold Coast and South Florida magazine, a feature writer
Avenue magazine and contributed to Penthouse, Esquire and
The New York
Magazine. He has worked on special
for the New York Daily News and the Chicago Tribune
involving the FBI's
of criminal informants in political investigations.
Among the awards given Fonzi's articles are the Philadelphia
Award, the Philadelphia Bar Association Award, two local
Awards, a National Sigma Delta Chi Award, four Florida
Awards, a City Regional Magazine Association Award, a
Enterprise Reporting Special Award and a Washington Monthly
Fonzi has been a finalist in Columbia's National Magazine
received the William Allen White Investigative Journalism
University of Kansas. He has been a guest lecturer in
the University of Pennsylvania and the University of
Fonzi is the co-author of an article TIME magazine honored
in 1970 as
of the ten most significant press stories of the
appeared in the book, The Best Magazine Articles of 1968.
He is the author of Annenberg: A Biography of Power,
published in 1970
Weybright & Talley in New York and by Anthony Blond in
The Last Investigation, published by Thunder's Mouth Press
in 1993 and,
trade paperback, in 1994.
FONZI: SELECTED REFERENCES
(For Gaeton Fonzi)
Covert Action Information Bulletin #12/81 pp37-8
DiEugenio, J. Destiny Betrayed. 1992 pp235 239
Duffy, J. Ricci, V. The Assassination of John F. Kennedy.
Furiati, C. ZR Rifle: The Plot to Kill Kennedy and Castro.
Groden, R. Livingstone, H. High Treason. 1990 pp189 399
Lane, M. Plausible Denial. 1991 pp32-4
Marrs, J. Crossfire. 1990 pp521-4 526 530
Melanson, P. Spy Saga. 1990 pp181-2
Morrow, R. First Hand Knowledge. 1992 p295
Pell, E. The Big Chill. 1984 p174
Russell, D. The Man Who Knew Too Much. 1992 pp280-1 418 420
Summers, A. Conspiracy. 1989 pp506-7 518 535
Vanity Fair 11/93 p100
Vankin, J. Conspiracies, Cover-ups, and Crimes. 1991 p123
Village Voice 3/31/92 p39
BEGIN VIDEO INTERVIEW
Today is October 8, 1994 and Gaeton Fonzi is here to answer
submitted to the Ft. Lauderdale JFK Researcher Group.
And he has
us permission to take these answers and transcribe them and
CompuServe and make them public record for anybody to read
or whatever. Mr. Fonzi.
GF: Okay. We're doing this basically because I'd
like to be
in terms of helping the researchers who are legitimately
my opinion or answers in areas of the investigation that I
involved *. There is enough confusion around today in
saying things or giving opinions of which they have no
I'll answer those questions that I do have some knowledge
I don't want to get into any kind of argumentative position
of questions that are, in fact, just points of view or
arguments for a
of view. So we can take it from there.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
1. When your book, The Last Investigation, reached the
your feelings seemed pessimistic that there was going to be
Do you still feel this way?
GF: Yes, I do feel that there will never be another
And though I feel that way, in the back of my mind I'm
might be. Of course, there's always, again, the
feeling that I
don't know whether the government can conduct a legitimate
on the one hand. And on the other, I've always felt
that if a
of the United States really wanted to find the truth, then
a true investigation, then perhaps there could be some
control of the
and agencies in order to achieve a true cooperative
investigation. Up to now, through history, there
Addendum (not on video) to answer #1 by Gaeton Fonzi:
[I didn't quite clarify the basic dilemma here.
this issue: Can the Government honestly investigate
believe it can if the President can take control of every
of the Government and get it to follow his orders.
a President who would have to give the investigation
and, perhaps, even issues that would be classified as
security." So the bottom line question then becomes,
be such a President? I doubt it.]
2. Is there any difference in opinion on the above question
those enthusiastic over the release of the records? If so,
GF: Yeah. I think there are those
enthusiastic about the release of the records
I think there are those that think that another
investigation would accomplish something.. Or would
to some extent that would be closer to the truth.
Again, to go
to what I said before, it's difficult to, for me, to feel
could investigate itself, fully and completely without the
a President who wanted to get at the truth.
3. If there are future obstacles to another investigation or
of records, what contemporary societal institutions do you
up the greatest amount of resistance?
GF: Well I'm not too sure what is meant by societal
that, are they the same as government institutions?
... we're talking about?
3.a. Heritage Foundation?
GF: Yeah. Heritage Foundation, or institutions like
really know. To answer that question as best as I can,
4. In the 1994 November elections are there any candidates
could be either an asset or a detriment to further
Nationally or locally?
GF: Well, I would hate to see Jeb Bush elected
But other than that, no, I don't know.
5. What areas of future investigation do you feel deserve
If your answers include the questions concerning David Atlee
Bishop and the Silvia Odio/Leon Oswald one, I already know
on these. What areas, other than the above, do you feel
GF: Well, * I have to concentrate on the areas that I
with in terms of answering that question. And it does
two areas. And to some extent Mexico City and the
as you are probably aware, at the COPA Conference this
be individual researchers that have done a tremendous
in other areas that, I know deserve further
For instance, there's a fellow out in Oklahoma who is coming
pretty good information when he tells me about the
possibility of there
two Oswalds at the time [one of the Oswalds] was supposed to
Marines, in the early part of the fifties, mid part of the
And so far, the information he has shown me has been valid
in terms of
conflicting evidence. So there are areas like that
researchers are working on, that I think really should be
looked into *.
Addendum (not on video) to answer #5 by Gaeton Fonzi:
[The fellow from Oklahoma to whom I'm referring is
His presentation at the COPA conference indicated he has
evidence of an
working in New Orleans in the mid-1950s at a time when
in the Marines. I believe there are individual
Armstrong who could point the way to many areas of the JFK
which need more investigation.]
6. Some people say that no connection between Oswald and
been incontrovertibly proven. What if Banister knew who
Oswald was but
know him personally? Could this possibly change the
direction of an
After all, Oswald was on New Orleans TV in the summer of
1963. He may
been on at least one other 11 P.M. news television broadcast
couldn't have missed a "defector" and FPCC leafletter,
kept tabs on lesser radicals.
GF: Yeah. This is a confusing question and it's
in an area that I'm not familiar with. From what I
Summers, in his investigation, came up with fairly good
was with Banister [according to the people Tony spoke] *.
6. a A follow up on that then. Do we know if any
files have been recovered other than just an index listing
of what some
his files may have been.
GF: No, I [don't]. I don't have an answer for
6.b. You didn't handle the New Orleans Part?
GF: No, I didn't.
6.c. You were just the Miami?
GF: I was just in Miami. I went down to New
of times. I had met Jim Garrison prior to my joining
Met him when I was working with Schweiker and as a result of
that I was
of the initial liaison with Garrison for the House
they, two separate investigators were hired in New Orleans
aspect of the investigation.
6.d. You don't know then or have any indication of
to his files?
6.e. They could have just been thrown away or some
grabbed them or what?
GF: I don't know.
6.f. You have no idea?
GF: I have no idea.
6.g. The state police, I understand. The state
of his files through his brother and his wife.
GF: Well there were two investigators. L. J.
Delsa and Bob
who were with the New Orleans Police Department prior to
Committee, who might provide better information.
7. Have you ever run into any evidence of Guy Banister
on Tampa FPCC chairman VT Lee?
GF: No I haven't, because again, * I wasn't involved
of the investigation.
8. Accepting Veciana's story of seeing Bishop with Oswald,
how can you
for this violation of "basic tradecraft"? Is it not
>participated< in the meeting with Bishop and Oswald?
GF: Anything is possible. But as far as
violation of basic
goes, David Phillips had a record of violating basic
left his briefcase, I believe at one point, in a
got in trouble with that. So I have no problem with
Addendum (not on video) to answer #8 by Gaeton Fonzi:
[As far as a lapse in "tradecraft" goes, let me add
which I have personal knowledge. It's detailed in my
when Phillips was introduced to Veciana at the ARIO meeting
the time it was still ARIO, not AFIO.) Veciana was
to Phillips twice, once in the banquet hall and once in the
Phillips even asked that it be repeated and then, when
"Don't you remember my name?" Phillips responded,
himself later pointed out, that was odd considering that
exceptionally well-known in anti-Castro activity, being the
fund-raiser and spokesman for Alpha 66, the largest and most
group. It was odd because anti-Castro activity was the
of Phillips' mission during the period in question. It
for Phillips not to know or remember Veciana's name.
been caught off-guard by Veciana's surprise appearance at
a little "slip of tradecraft." Phillips himself must
that because later, under oath during his Committee
the only way he could rectify that "slip of tradecraft" was
to lie and
that Veciana was never introduced to him by name at that
I urged Chief Counsel Bob Blakey to recommend Phillips be
since we had three witnesses to that Reston encounter:
an aide from Senator Schweiker's office. Blakey
declined to take
9. Can you clarify the >exact< wording of Veciana's
about Bishop's request that Veciana contact Guillermo
did Veciana's early statements imply that Ruiz had no
but would be asked to lie?
GF: Yes. As far as clarifying Veciana's exact
likely do that, especially off the top of my head because
that we discussed so many time. I discussed so many
in terms of getting additional details from things he was
But from what I recall now, Veciana said that Bishop did
come to him
said that he knew that his cousin was involved with, was
in Mexico City. And at that time there was a story
Oswald had been seen with a man and a woman somewhere.
wife could speak very good English and I think Ruiz' wife
good English. This is, again, off the top of
said, "if you can get your cousin to say that he was with
be worth a lot of money to him." And Veciana said
okay, he would
to get in touch with him. Veciana made several
attempts over the
few months to get in touch with his cousin but was unable
and I don't recall the specifics of this, but I believe
or I found out later, that Ruiz rebuffed his attempts to
And so Veciana was never able to get in touch with him
. And when
in one of his later meetings with Bishop, he told Bishop
said, "well, that's okay, forget about it." But
question as far as did Veciana's early statements imply that
knowledge of Oswald but would be asked to lie.
That's exactly what he was asked, would be asked to do.
10. Veciana states that Bishop asked Veciana to contact Ruiz
to state that Oswald was at the Cuban Consulate;
his mind and told Veciana to forget it. This implies
some means of communication with Ruiz but had not yet
Do you know if Veciana maintained contact with Ruiz?
GF: Well again, this question was answered in what I
in terms of the previous question. * * Bishop didn't
contact Ruiz and get Ruiz to state that Oswald was at the
That's not what he had asked him to do. And Bishop
mind as far as telling Veciana to forget. Veciana told
he hadn't been able to get in touch with Ruiz. Veciana
a means of communication. That was the problem.
to establish a means of communication and was unsuccessful.
11. Recently, Guillermo Ruiz stated that he translated for
Cuban Consulate. Do you know of >any<
that Ruiz met with Oswald? Does the statement by Ruiz
statements by Veciana?
GF: No it doesn't contradict anything that Veciana
didn't have any knowledge about that. I'm familiar
about Oswald at the Cuban Consulate. I have difficulty
Cuban reports at this point as I do with the reports of the
as far as Oswald being there because there is conflicting
terms of where Oswald was, when, in Mexico City. So,
There are too many areas left under-investigated in the
12. Fabian Escalante [Font] has asserted that Veciana
meeting between Bishop and Oswald and that the purpose of
to develop a plan to recruit Guillermo Ruiz when Oswald went
GF: I'm not familiar with Escalante's details
The whole Cuban report here seems to be largely drawn from
materials, it seems to me. I haven't had an
opportunity to talk
Escalante **. But as far as the details of that
have no basis for evaluating it because they didn't present
any kind of
for what they said.
13. There is circumstantial evidence that there may have
plot by some members of Alpha 66 (or that Alpha 66 was being
set up as
potential patsy). There are strong historical ties
and JURE, and specifically ties between Alpha 66 and S.
are the reasons that you would exclude the possibility that
"behind" the Odio incident?
GF: Well that's a reversed type of question in
the possibility that Alpha-66 was behind the Odio
showed Silvia Odio an awful lot of photographs of various
a number of Alpha-66 people, and she did not identify
not sure exactly what is meant by strong historical ties
and JURE. JURE was founded by Manolo Ray and I'm not
any strong historical tie excepting some overlapping
membership by a
people. The initial reason that I went to see Veciana
had suggested the possibility of Veciana himself having been
one of the
who visited Silvia Odio. But Silvia knew Veciana, knew
like and said that it wasn't him.
14. I'd like to know what he thinks about Lane's central
Denial_. More specifically, does he believe LHO's
appearances at the
in Mexico were fabricated and, if so, does he feel this
shows he was
GF: I think I mentioned before that I'm, I have a very
establishing any conclusions of my own line as far as
in Mexico City because there seems to be so much conflicting
terms of where he was, when. And including in
There are little details, as you may remember in Dallas when
KGB agent (Oleg Nechiporenko). Nechiporenko
said, of course
was Oswald there, yet he described Oswald as wearing
than Oswald was wearing when he left the Cuban Embassy to go
Embassy. So there are all kinds of conflicts there
that I can't
yet. And, again, this is, I think, one of the
needs more investigation.
14.a. I just want to ask one thing. Do you
was even Oswald or not?
GF: I wouldn't discount the possibility that Oswald
there was also someone else there, identifying himself as
(NOTE: See attachment "A", Odio and Connell
[Attachment "A" was sent as part of the question and is not
transcript. It consisted of photocopies of published
15. What does Connell's earlier story say about Sylvia
Have you questioned Odio about Connell's claim? . Has
investigated and refuted beyond Odio's own denials?
GF: This is a question, as I think I mentioned
earlier, that I
I think I have, specific answers to in the files. And
a chance to review the files. I talked to Connell and
this now off the top of my head. I spent an awful lot
of time, of
with Silvia Odio, questioning and re-questioning her.
but other investigators and attorneys for the
Committee. And came
the conclusion that she is totally credible. And not
only did I
to this conclusion, but the attorneys questioning her and
and the Committee, said [so] in it's report. Now as
far as, again
the top of my head, when I talked to Connell. I talked
to her a
times also. I had a difficult time getting her to
was in the FBI reports, as far as what she said
I have to admit that I was suspicious of Connell in terms of
I mean, she was a volunteer for this Cuban refugee
husband ** had an interesting job that took him around the
doing travel agency business, travel consulting business. **
between Silvia Odio and Connell deteriorated tremendously
prior to the
[incident], what I call the Oswald incident, as a result of
specifically wanting to infiltrate herself into Silvia
Knowing what Silvia was doing every minute. That was
Odio herself. And that's why they had a falling
did not initially know Silvia Odio, but was introduced to
her by her
Sarita who had come to Dallas earlier and who Mrs. Connell
I can say in answer to the question specifically, that
the contradictions that * Mrs. Connell herself put forth in
Odio's testimony. All the evidence that we came up
16. In your discussions with Mitchell Livingston
WerBell III, did
discuss any of the ultrasophisticated assassination weapons
for the CIA at all? Anything that comes close to
to "ice bullets" used in Dealey Plaza?
GF: Mitch WerBell discussed almost [everything].
a whole day with him up in his farm, as he called it, in
training ground for guerrillas. And he covered almost
He was half bombed. He had been coming off the wagon
almost everything in terms of questions that I was
don't recall him saying anything about an ice-bullet.
Not at all.
16.a. An ice hatchet? A machete?
17. WerBell's association with Lucien Conein is
mentioned in the
but nothing of any contact with Lansdale. Did WerBell
Lansdale or Conein working with Lansdale, especially in
GF: I don't remember him mentioning Lansdale. We
much about Vietnam from what I recall. He may have
I don't recall at this point, but it wasn't an area that I
questioning him about.
18. In your book, you write that two pieces of
evidence in the
proves that there was a conspiracy:
"One demolishes the single-bullet theory: the locations of
in the back of Kennedy's jacket and shirt - hard, tangible,
- obliterate the possibility of a bullet emerging from
striking Governor Connally. Single-bullet-theory
conceded this was a worrisome contradiction. The other
came from validating Sylvia Odio's report that Oswald, or
him (it matters not), appeared at her door in Dallas with
one of whom would link Oswald to the notion of killing the
That was a deliberate act of connecting Oswald to the
the assassination. Beyond all the other evidence
all the acoustic tests, the autopsy evidence, the bullet
and what have you, even beyond all the other evidence of
the Odio incident absolutely cries conspiracy. In
fact, I have no
in declaring the Kennedy assassination a conspiracy based
Odio's consistently credible testimony and, more important,
our investigation proved it true."
END OF QUOTE
How do you view Posner's technique on this subject vs. your
example, it does not appear from the notes in the back of
his book that
interviewed her, relying instead on her testimony to the WC,
hesitate to mention her emotional problems (p. 178), her
or that there isn't one piece of corroborating evidence for
claim that one of the men who visited her was introduced as
(p. 180). Could he have interviewed her? Should
her? What >makes< her credible, in your
GF: First of all, let me say at the start, that I view
as a dishonest book. Posner called me early on when he
to work on the book. He asked me about those areas of
in which I was involved. I told him briefly, gave him
He said that they seemed very interesting and very important
would have to come and talk with me in detail about
it. And I
he was welcome to do that. This was way before I even
He said that he would do that and I never heard from him
far as Posner's handling of Odio, he never talked to
and what he does in his book in terms of building up a
problem that she had by using an individual, quoting an
who Silvia Odio never met, who happened to be a friend of
think. To me, was, again, misleading and
dishonest. As far
it isn't true, as this says, that there isn't one piece of
evidence for a post assassination claim that one of
the men who
her was introduced as Leon Oswald. That's simply not
sister was at the apartment at that time. We got
her sister. Could he have interviewed her? I
or not he could have interviewed her. Should he have
Of course he should have interviewed her. And what
of course, is the fact that everything she says, we got
We got a corroboration in terms of the details which are
And in fact, even additional corroboration has come forward
who we couldn't locate, a friend of hers, specifically
talking about the visit prior to the assassination. On
He pinpointed the evening closer than she had before.
So, as far
Posner goes, and his credibility in the Odio area, I think
19. David Sanchez Morales and David Atlee Phillips
were, as I
it, associates? Did Morales report to Phillips?
to Phillips? Sturgis? Harvey?
running the show pretty much as far as the anti-Castro
Or was Helms? How, in your opinion, was Phillips
and Alpha-66, able to continue anti-Castro activity after
it, without sanctioned CIA approval?
GF: Well, that's a question * based on the assumption
a huge paper chain of command that is strictly adhered to by
[at all times]. And there may be a huge
command somewhere in the walls of Langley, but in the field,
it [always] exists. I think, especially during this
you had a tremendous * "off the wall" operations almost, you
going on and they involved individuals who had worked
together in other
and in other areas. And who, on the basis of their
on the basis of any chain of, written chain of command,
they were trying to accomplish. As far as CIA approval
activity after Kennedy forbade it, the records indicate, and
even indicate, that these raids were in fact made. And
Committee, developed information that these individual
were, in fact, controlled by their CIA handlers. I
mean, we know
from the evidence and testimony that we dug up from former
worked out of JM/WAVE station.
19.a. Are you saying that Alpha-66 made raids and they
by the Committee?
GF: Well, that was in the newspapers.
19.b. I know that was in the newspapers. But
up solely as a money making operation for another group and
when it was
out that this had occurred, Veciana took his Alpha 66, [name
He took the name and incorporated it under the Secretary of
of Puerto Rico as an organization. And when Tony
Cuesta, who had
to Alpha-66 prior to this and kept using the name Alpha-66,
it, he changed his [group] name to Commandos-L. But in
it shows that out of the Puerto Rican office they've
Alpha-66 Incorporated, and then they have
did the Committee ever get down to figure out who was doing
sounded like from the FBI documents that Alpha-66 didn't do
that it was the Second National Front of Escambray that was
the raids on Cuba].
GF: Well, again, I think you're getting into this
that probably didn't really exist in the field.
reports in the New York times, for instance, with Veciana
during the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, " Alpha-66
into Havana Harbor." So, I think what's happening is
and titles and unit designations were being thrown out by
to throw them out.. Veciana was saying Alpha-66, and
and Tony Cuesta was involved.
19.c. But Veciana also told the news media at a
conference, at a
conference in Washington, that he over-exaggerated raids and
raids that Alpha-66 had [not] done. Intentionally he
they had made raids that they had not done in order for fund
So did the Committee get into verifying, whether......or
that Alpha-66 was doing it or some other group was doing it?
GF: No. Because Alpha-66, for instance, and we're
that period during the Cuban Missile Crisis and the raids
that Veciana claims, now we know that they weren't, and I
took credit for them, for Alpha-66. Now whether
said that wasn't really Alpha 66, I'm really not that
19.d. Well I think it was Menoyo's group. See, the
Second Front. He [Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo] was doing the
was taking claim for them, I think that was the way the
GF: Yeah. Could have been, but as far as....the
that Veciana was claiming that Bishop was the one who
do these raids at this time. And that's * what the
19.e. Now, taking it from here. Veciana
that Alpha-66 performed raids that some other group was
wanted to get funds through Alpha-66 for this other
makes a statement that he had intentionally deceived
on what raids he had done. Now take that, and take the
lot of people bring this up, and he is a convicted drug
can we believe anything he says? Where is the
credibility in this
This is a big, big problem with a lot of people. The
Veciana, especially because of the drug thing.
GF: We're left with that impression of a convicted
drug felon as
image in our minds that has certain connotations. And
to convey is, what I think is the truth, that Veciana does
not fit that
at all. And having looked into the circumstances of
Veciana's claim that he was set up. He had never been
before, and how the discovery of drugs in a car that he
and how it appeared that his claim for being set up on it
That would require going into a tremendous amount of
I first approached Veciana I had all that skepticism about
was an investigative reporter for twenty years. I
can't tell you
many ex-convicts I talked to said they were innocent of the
People who are sitting in jail saying "they framed
me." So I had
lot of experience dealing with people like that. And I
discount Veciana's story, on the basis of his being an
In fact, when I first contacted him, he was still in Atlanta
And yet, when I did the investigation into that, looked into
of his claims in terms of the case, I found that there was
to them. And, again, Veciana doesn't fit into that
image of a
felon in terms of his philosophy, his family and how he's
past. There's absolutely no connection at all.
And so the
of believing Veciana has to rest on two things. One,
this aura of
- which can't hold up on itself. And second,
corroboration on as
detail as possible. Or, failing corroboration,
catching him in
in details. And that's what I tried to do, and
could not do
the years of working with him. Everything that he told
me that I
corroborate. And I mean corroborate by him being where
he was, or
for instance..... Let me give you a little
here. I was sitting in Veciana's living room talking
to him when
was telling me about the incident where he got the final
When Bishop decided that he couldn't work with Veciana
they couldn't work together. There had been a mistrust
I think, just to go into a little sidetrack here, that
as a result of Veciana wanting to continue to attempt to
and Bishop telling him that further assassination plans had
And Veciana, without Bishop's knowledge, going ahead and
assassination attempts. I think when Bishop discovered
what caused the split.
19.f. That was the Chile incident?
GF No. That was after Chile.
so, as a result of that, Bishop called Veciana and said he
him for all the years he worked with him. The
from the beginning, Veciana said, no, when we get rid of
pay. Because Veciana didn't think that it would go on
for all the
it did. He thought it would be a short period of
wanted was expenses. Some little expenses along the
as it worked out, Veciana got a specific amount of money,
I think it was. Or $253,000, I forget the figure
said Bishop called him up and told him to meet him at the
dog track. And he's telling me this story.
19.g. What dog track? Here in Miami?
GF: In Miami. The one right next to where
19.h. Flagler Dog Track.
GF: Right. And as he's telling me this story, he
ironic because the payment came on the 26th of July.
Veciana's wife, who had been paying absolutely no attention
to us as
was cleaning the house and taking care of the children,
going back and
between the kitchen and the bedrooms and through the living
room as we
talking. Paying absolutely no attention to us.
this, he mentions the 26th of July and she comes walking by
and he stops here. And he says, "Remember that 26th of
She says, "Huh? . "You know, 26th of July, and the
she says "And when you got the money?" And , you know,
believe that was a setup not to be credible. I mean,
this, her walking by, and her being part of the scheme
I find that hard to believe in itself. So, things like
incidents when you're talking to people that give you a
And that's what I mean in terms of corroborating as much as
I could in
details that Veciana told me.
Addendum (not on video) to answer 19h by Gaeton Fonzi:
[I don't think I made myself clear here in terms of
spontaneously corroborating his receiving the briefcase of
26 and that she did so under circumstances which couldn't
pre-arranged. That's my point here in terms of judging
20. In your opinion, is [David Sanchez] Morales' drunken
in the assassination credible?
GF: What I find credible were the people who told me
said. And these were the people that had no connection
that Morales was involved with. Who were very
Morales. And who had very legitimate
backgrounds. One was a
Law School graduate. So on that basis, yeah. I
was told to me about what Morales said, credible.
20.a. Was Morales a close friend of Phillips?
GF: He was a working associate of Phillips down
Phillips mentions him in his book.
20.b. At JM/WAVE? Were they working
GF: I'm sure they were working together. Well,
executive officer of JM/WAVE and Phillips didn't really work
he had his own little thing going. He used
people. But what
were able to develop, and Morales' work in Latin American
Phillips was the boss, puts him and Phillips together very
20.c. So Shackley then, came under Phillips in the
GF: No. I don't think...Well, at one
point, it was in
time period of the JM/WAVE, I don't [think] that's true
because I think
was involved in psychological warfare and
got into specifically head of Cuban
counter-intelligence. And so
think he had operations going. For instance, we were
individual who was one of the agents working out of the
One of those who supervised an anti-Castro group. And
if they got
certain areas of operation in psychological warfare, for
they would coordinate with Phillips. Phillips would be
Meanwhile Phillips had his own blue operations going..
exactly how, you know, the chain of command went [or there
were a chain
command]. It was more like calling on, I got the
on fields of expertise that were employed.
21. Any plans to make a mini-series out of THE LAST
to the A & E INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS series? The
book read like
murder and suspense mystery thriller and was, IMO, extremely
might translate well to video format.
GF: Well, I think that's awful nice. And if
anyone has, *
one has suggested that before].
21.a. Well, can we say that this is the first in a
GF: No. (laughter)
22. Was there any investigation in LHO's travels to New
leave periods while stationed in Mississippi? If so,
connections with David Ferrie revealed?
GF: I'm not familiar with that area at all. I
23. Do you know of any LHO activities in Atlanta, GA? (Other
GF: No, I don't know.
24. Gerald Posner's book "Case Closed" came out around the
Archives started releasing the first group of JFK
the President John F. Kennedy Assassination records
was highly regarded by the media, but to the best of our
see any of the newly released files. Of these records, some
have seen, what if any shows Posner's insufficient knowledge
GF: Well again, I think I answered [that] before [in
terms of] my
relationship with those areas of the investigation which
in his book. As far as other areas, I'm aware of
who are extremely knowledgeable in certain areas who find
and his handling of the evidence absolutely ludicrous.
24.a. Have you read his book?
24.b. You call it dishonest. Do you think
GF: Oh yeah. I have to believe on the basis of
with Posner, that it was intentional. As he said, he
was going to
down and talk to me about that area of the investigation
that I was
with. And when I read what he had written without
getting the details I had. I offered him access to my
He never showed up. And so when he did that, I could
come to no
conclusion that he deliberately distorted those areas
would have run against the thesis of this book.
24.c. Do you have any opinion what ends he could have
for? Other than to maybe sell books?
GF: Other than selling books? Well that's a
pretty good end
itself. I think he would consider that a pretty good
24.d. Have you read CASE OPENED?
GF: No, I haven't read Weisberg's book. You
not that interested in critiquing Posner. It just
the major media paid so much attention to him without
what he was writing. And I think we could spend an
awful lot of
waste a lot of time, discrediting Posner.
24.e. I wrote in my notes here that to even ask
to him is giving him credibility.
GF: And I think that's a good point.
25. DO YOU HAVE SOME HARD CORE ANSWERS TO A DIRECT
BISHOP & DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS. I'm talking PROOF - NOT
GF: I can only say that whoever asked that, [should]
And look at the chain of circumstantial evidence, you can
call it, but
evidence that Maurice Bishop was David Atlee Phillips.
from former CIA agents who recalled Phillips using the name
[Questions 26-47 not answered by Gaeton Fonzi.]
48. On the same page (50), you also wrote George
was a "CIA intelligence asset." What do you mean by an
GF: In the case of George de Mohrenschildt, he
to the CIA. And that's in the records. That's in
own records. It's in the CIA records, as a matter of
48.a. And that's your definition of an intelligence
GF: In terms of George de Mohrenschildt, yes.
49. On page 54 you discuss what Clare Boothe Luce told
including quotes. Where does one find the record on
the quotes you use? Is there any available
corroboration for the
she is alleged to have told? Where is it found?
GF: The, all that documentation regarding Clare Boothe
Schweiker is in Schweiker's records. It's in
Schweiker's, or one
his assistant's, reports to me in terms of her conversations
Our conversations with Clare Boothe Luce, when I was on the
should be in the House Committee's records. Everything
our contacts with Clare Boothe Luce and our efforts to
by talking to individuals who were involved with her in the
in the House Committee records or memorandums that I wrote
when I was working with Schweiker on the Kennedy
Subcommittee of the
Committee. And I think most of those Schweiker
over to the House Committee. So they should be all in
In addition to which, I have.......
[Questions 50-55 not answered by Gaeton Fonzi.]
56. Have "Angel" and "Leopoldo" been identified?
a statement indicating its belief that they are, in fact,
Guillermo & Whoever. Has anyone taken pictures of
to the Odio sisters to see if there is a positive ID?
that the AARC has quite a collection of anti-Castro Cuban
Has anyone ever made a decent attempt to take a bunch of old
anti-Castro Cubans to see if the Odio sisters can identify
I imagine that the G-2 would have a nice collection of
ever approached Cuba to see why it feels that Angel &
GF: We, the House Committee, got together a huge thick
of individuals including many we thought might be
and Leopoldo. And of course we ran them all by Silvia
ran dozens of photos by her when I was still, before I
joined the House
when I was still with Schweiker. I don't know whether
been specifically shown photos of the Novo brothers
I don't recall whether I asked her about it in one of my
with her. In my mind, I dismissed the Novo brothers as
Odio connection. I may be dismissing it because I did
it, or I may be dismissing it because the Novo brothers were
known and their photos had been in the paper. And
have said something to me when I spoke with her. It
like, "oh, by the way Gaeton, I just remembered, it was the
I mean, because they were well known characters in
town. It's a
question about the G-2, Castro's G-2, having a nice
And I'm sure they do. And, as a matter of fact,
set up prior to all this recent confusion with the
Something was being set up in terms of getting that
hopefully, those photos.
56.a. The last contact you had with Silvia, does she
she would be able, if she had pictures from that era, that
she would be
to identify the photographs of the people who visited her?
GF: That's a good question now because she has seen so
that, and this is only my personal opinion, that I'm not
exists an image in her mind of Angel and Leopoldo.
some certain specific characteristics that she's been
repeating over the years. But, as I said, she's seen
that there might be an element of confusion in her mind at
Addendum (not on video) to answer #56a by Gaeton Fonzi:
[I don't mean to imply here that Silvia Odio couldn't
of Angel or Leopoldo if she were shown them. I am
might not be able to be definite if she were now shown
who only bore a resemblance to those men, whereas if the FBI
shown her photos at the time she would have been able to
[Question 57 not answered by Gaeton Fonzi.]
58. What agencies do you feel have records which need to be
GF: That again is a good question. The usual
The usual suspects, of course, but the question raises
another, I think
point. And that is there are many areas that the House
instance, didn't get into. Individuals that they never
requesting documents on. And who may not be now
sitting in the
and CIA files under Kennedy Assassination headings.
But I think a
place to start, in terms of records in any of the agencies,
and valid records of the agents and officers involved in the
that, we in the Kennedy assassination research, define. And
that's where a plan could be formulated from.
58.a. Did the Committee get into US Customs records at
GF: I don't know.
58.b. You know about the neutrality team they had down
these anti-Castro things....Is that a valid JFK record?
GF: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
I think we
have. And I know we did try to get the records of
like [Cesar] Diosdado for example and were not successful.
58.c. They wouldn't give them to you?
GF: I think we probably asked too late at some
Diosdado wouldn't talk to us.
58.d. Did you talk to [Steve] Czukas?
GF: Yeah. Many times.
58.e. Did he have anything interesting to say?
GF: Yeah, about a lot of different things.
58.f. Yeah. So that story about him putting
Lorenz up in
Miami Springs Villa is true?
59. Would the release of all the U.S. Customs records
and Neutrality violations be of use to JFK
researchers? If so, in
way will these records shed any light on the investigation?
GF: Well, I think specifically they would reveal names
in that time and place. And would serve as a basis for
60. Do you see the door closing on the release of records
under the JFK
What might trigger the closure?
GF: I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly what that
The door is not open all the way, by any means, so
And again, what would trigger the closure from what it
appears now is
funding. If they don't get the funding to keep that
operation going, it will close it down.
60.a. For your information, there was a notice the
other day that
JFK Review Board was asking for suggestions as to the
definition of a
record. And that, I think, goes back to Question #59,
Customs records pertaining to the neutrality violations - -
in your estimation, would that come under the definition of
GF: I would definitely think so because I think what
the definition of a JFK record would be all the records of
agency involved in that, the specific time and places
connected to the
assassination. And that includes New Orleans, Dallas,
Oswald might have been. And where ever any possible
have been who had some connection to anyone in the
of both the Warren Commission and the House Select
60.b. Was there any great evidence ever uncovered that
came to Miami?
GF: No. I found absolutely no story that panned
out as far
Oswald ever being in Miami.
60.c. Did you check on the newspaper articles in the
GF: Yeah. We checked on the articles [including
by] Jim Buchanan. And they all trace back somehow to
[Note: Jim Buchanan was a good friend of Frank Sturgis]
61. Are there any other individuals that were not mentioned
who are important players in the JFK assassination?
GF: Well, there are probably dozens that other
important players. As I said, I didn't get in to all
of the investigation. And I dealt with only those in
which I was,
62. What other areas of investigation still need to be
GF: I think this is redundant and what I just said in
areas that are yet, unexplored, under-investigated.
62.a. Do you think that there are any records that in
requested, have been claimed to have been routinely
think there is a possibility of those records, or a copy of
ever becoming available?
GF: I do think there is a possibility that
copies of such
[exist]. There's a whole military intelligence
had supposedly been destroyed. ** The Committee
the possibility that there may be duplicates somewhere.
[Question 63 not answered by Gaeton Fonzi.]
64. What was del Valle's association with the
underworld? What do
have to back up any connection?
GF: I don't specifically recall what
if any, regarding del Valle. This was an area of the
, again, in which I wasn't directly involved. I did
del Valle. Gordon Winslow did a tremendous amount of
Valle. But the information that I had was that there
between del Valle and some drug traffic.
65. How valid is Cuba's claims that del Valle was one of the
GF: I don't know the answer to that question.
presented any kind of specific evidence to back it up.
66. Can Tony Cuesta have had any information on the
GF: Could he have had any information? He may
about individuals and what they were doing when, at some
know what specific information he would have had. I
opportunity to question him.
67. Was Cuesta involved in assassination attempts against
GF: Again, I don't specifically know. I think he
he was involved in a few attempts to assassinate Castro.
67.a. That recent ZR-RIFLE book that came out by
Furiati on the
documentary. I think that's, they claim that that was
attempt. That landing was. That's when he got
No comment made by Gaeton Fonzi.
68. Do you believe Carlos Prio committed suicide?
GF: All the evidence seems to indicate that he
did. And I
have any evidence indicating that he did [not].
69. Do you believe de Mohrenschildt committed suicide?
GF: Yeah. I believe de Mohrenschildt
70. Do you think that de Mohrenschildt committed suicide
going to see him? What was your reaction upon hearing of his
GF: Yeah. Again, this is my opinion. At
the time de
committed suicide, there were a number of things taking
place, and a
of specific factors that put a lot of pressure on him.
was getting started again. He was being asked, I
another role in his relationship to the assassination and
the Warren Commission. He was taken, just before he
he was taken to Belgium by a foreign journalist. He
he felt he was, being set up. He was supposed to have
a KGB official, I believe, but he ran away. He came
He believed he was being set up to make it appear that there
was a link
him and the KGB. And then obviously a link between
Oswald and the
because of his link to the KGB. And then, Epstein
once again, spends a whole afternoon with him at a hotel in
And, I think, he's under a lot of pressure. He comes
his daughter hands him my card. I had been there in
I told his daughter that I wanted to talk to him and that I
in touch. He puts the card in his shirt pocket and
blows his head off. And so, I think you have a
linkages there. He hadn't been a well man,
prior to that he had been treated for mental problems.
So I think
linkage is there in terms of the pressures being put on
do believe he committed suicide. I don't think there's
to indicate that he didn't.
70.a. What was your reaction at the time?
GF: Well, I heard it second hand. As a matter of
I came back from Palm Beach county that afternoon, and was
going to get
in touch with him, I got a call from a friend who was
working for a tv
in Dallas who had heard that de Mohrenschildt had committed
And I was shocked. I hung up the phone and immediately
got a call
the US State attorney in Palm Beach, who was at de
And who had found my card in his pocket and who had told me
had committed suicide. And so, I immediately rushed up
out exactly what happened.
70.b. How did that affect your investigation at that
GF: Well, I can tell you how it should have affected
It should have had a tremendous impact on the House
We should have inundated Palm Beach County with
have gone off in every single direction with a crew of
Unfortunately, that very evening, the Committee was in a
fight for it's
And no one paid any attention to my desperate calls for help
the Committee because the Committee was about to be
was only as a result of.........well, the result of two
things that the
was able to [be] re-funded. And that was Sprague's
on his part because he was absolutely right what he wanted
the second was de Mohrenschildt's suicide, which got a lot
of play in
papers about the Kennedy assassination. And that's why
the next day, got enough votes to be re-funded and continue
two year life.
Addendum (not on video) to answer 70b by Gaeton Fonzi:
[I don't want to give the impression here that the
investigation of DeM's death. A couple of
experience did later come down to Florida to review the
report, but we did no independent investigation of the
his death. That's mainly because of the state of flux
in Washington in the days and weeks following DeM's
of DeM's relationship to Oswald and the JFK assassination,
handled by attorney Surrell Brady, whose report is in the
I don't know if she ever interviewed Epstein but I would
guess that she
I had no opportunity to question Epstein immediately after
he quickly left town.]
71. What roll, if any, did WerBell have in the assassination
GF: Well, we certainly looked into that and wasn't
really able to
very much. We got, initially, when I was working for
got reports from someone who was close to WerBell who
was a link. Werbell had perhaps some knowledge.
an awful lot of time with WerBell and looking into his
And because they were so convoluted and so, in many cases,
deep, involved in covert operations, we weren't really able
to come up
anything in terms of any kind of linkages.
Though, in my
with him, at one point he said he received a call from
as he said. And then refused to get specific about
call was. But he was half bombed when I was talking to
it may have been something that either he made up, or he
I thought it was interesting.
Addendum (not on video) to answer 71 by Gaeton Fonzi:
[I don't mean to give the impression I didn't attempt
on WerBell's reference to Ruby. At the time, however,
to get WerBell to respond coherently to questions I asked,
he was getting drunker or, more likely, pretending he was
He simply became evasive and mumbled more when I repeatedly
him down to details, so it's still difficult to decide
to Ruby was a true slip or an attempt to add a touch of
71.a. There's been some new material, speaking of Ruby
down here. That Ruby also had contact with Rolando
Have you ever heard of any such thing?
GF: No, I've never heard of it.
72. Did David Atlee Phillips ever recruit Frank Sturgis at
any time for
job? If Yes what job or use was Sturgis to Phillips?
GF: I've got no indication that Phillips ever worked
And knowing this, what sticks in my mind, whenever I would
name to Sturgis, Sturgis would go ballistic in terms of how
Phillips. Absolutely wild in terms of his reaction to
mention of David Phillips at all. He [said he] "hated
And the reason he said he hated him was because Phillips
never had anything to do at all with the CIA. And that
about that connection. Veciana said that at one point,
asked him to sit, or go to a meeting, monitor an operation
involved in called Cellula Fantasma. And Veciana did
to Bishop about what was happening. I believe it was a
there are all kinds of reports now exactly what it
was. When I
Sturgis about it, I think he told me it was ** a leaflet
* There were indications that it may have been something
also. But that's the only connection I could come up
73. Could you give us a brief scenario of the law suit that
brought against you for your article in the Washingtonian?
GF: Sure. ** David Phillips sued me, the editor, the
the magazine for $70 million each for the article. And
lawsuit in Federal Court in Virginia and in Maryland State
it was immediately thrown out of Federal Court because
foundation for it. But it did reach the Supreme Court,
what is in
the Supreme Court in Maryland, it has another name.
ruled that there was absolutely no basis for a libel action
part. I mean, he actually rendered his decision on the
Phillips' contentions. It wasn't a technicality.
rendered on the substance that Phillips wasn't libeled in
73.a. Was that because he was a public figure?
GF: No, it wasn't because he was a public figure.
73.b. Did the lower courts throw it out because he was
GF: No. The lower courts, from what I recall,
didn't throw it out as a result of his being a public
the judge eventually ruled, and I do recall the specifics of
Court ruling, that everything that was in the article was
It was no accusations or specifics in the article that
in the article.
73.c. But Phillips wrote in the article for the
Review, or something like that, that he was declared a
How did that come up? How does that come up? How
GF: He says it.
73.d. I know that he says it. What was it in
your case that
was ruled a public figure?
GF: I don't recall that. I don't recall....
73.e. Or was it in the Donald Freed case?
GF: In my opinion, it might have been in the Freed
recall. I don't know. But I recall specifically
the Supreme Court in Maryland that Phillips had no basis for
of libel. It wasn't the fact that he was a public
73.f. Now he claims that he didn't have any money to
I don't know how, in the suit. Maybe I'm asking a
GF: He may not have had any money to go further in the
because it was dropped afterwards. ** But he went all the
way to the
Court in Maryland.
73.g. In Maryland. But he was evidently going to
he, the organization he started called Challenge Inc. was
the one that
feeding him the money. Is that a correct statement?
GF: That's the assumption I got. But I can't
imagine any of
resources of the retired CIA officials being insufficient..
73.h. Me either.
74. Do you think the Assoc. Of Retired Intelligence Officers
to do with coaxing David Atlee Phillips into bringing
help him? What do you have to back up your claim?
GF: No. I think David Atlee Phillips coaxed the
Retired Intelligence Officers to support him. And I
he set up this Challenge group specifically to support him
Although he said, of course, it was to support all these
Did they help him? Yeah. I think there's
in fact, helped him. There's certainly documentation
that he was
for funds for the suit.
74.a. Yeah. And in that letter that he asked for
that for, I think, legal reasons, or something else, that
appeared on the letterhead, could not be associated with the
of Retired Intelligence Officers. Do you remember
There was some reason why the two of them could not be
had to be a separate group?
GF: No I don't. The only thing I assume is that
of Retired Intelligence Officers may have been a tax-exempt
and couldn't use the funding for that.
75. Is there an effort on the part of the Association of
Officers to use the courts to silence critics?
it start? What have they done to counteract the JFK
GF: I don't have the answers to any of the
questions. All I
is that they were, in fact, active in the suit that David
against me and the Washingtonian, unsuccessfully.
76. Can you comment on the following message that Gary
to 12 individuals by CompuServe e-mail? He states,
any of these interesting rumors going around that at least 3
ranking members of the CIA, nationally well known
"concern" about COPA? I've heard such things and I
fascinating. What on earth could they be worried
than they knows that a lone nut did it?"
GF: All I know is what I heard from Gary Aguilar
else who was talking to Gus Russo, who told, from what I
that the luncheon was arranged by this fellow Ed, Ned
his name is.
GF: Dolan. And that [Ted] Shackley.. [Richard]
76.b. Helms wasn't there.
GF: [William] Colby?
GF: No. Colby didn't show up. One of them didn't
they were .....
76.d. Dr. Artwohl. Russo. But Russo has
wasn't the intention of the meeting anyway.
GF: Oh, no. This is all second hand information
76.e. Yeah. Well, that's what everybody's
thought you might have an inside track.
GF: No. No inside track.
76.f. No back channel either?
GF: No. Except for what Gary Aguilar told me.
77. Is there a concerted effort today on the part of
any group or
agency to quiet the conspiracy rumors? Why? Who are
What tactics do they utilize?
GF: This gets in to too much speculation in terms of
quieting the conspiracy rumors. Again, going back to
I think what we've got to keep in mind here, in terms of
hard fact, is
the government agencies historically have not been
regarding the Kennedy assassination. And there's no
democratic form of government that they have, that they
But their reason that they haven't been can either be
avoiding cooperation because of guilty knowledge or
to preserve, for self preservation reasons. And
reasons that go
the preservation that any bureaucracy feels it has to have
in order to
it's own boundaries, as it were.
78. What was the relationship between David Atlee
GF: What we do know is that Townley knew, I mean
Townley family. And from what, from the
with who are intimately involved in that investigation, and
of course, goes back to, we're talking about the Letelier
There was a relationship between Phillips and Townley.
to find it on any document. But, again, this is
involved with the investigation.
79. Was Jorge Mas Canosa associated in any way with
GF: Jorge Mas Canosa said, in a written response to
him in regard to an article I was writing for Esquire
magazine at the
that he did work for Radio Swan.
80. What part did Jorge Mas Canosa have in the death
GF: I have absolutely no knowledge of anything to do
81. Did Orlando Bosch have any ties to the
any time? What were these connections?
GF: I think that he did. And my feeling is based
with individuals who were CIA assets or agents. What
specifically is Luis Posada, who is a CIA agent. And
with Posada in the Cubana Airlines bombing. But Bosch
that he was running a, at one point, a camp that the CIA was
South Miami, I mean South Florida.
82. On page 118, you wrote: "In his memo [to
Hoch wondered why Veciana's attempt against Castro was not
Church report. He pointed out that although CIA
with the Mafia were suspended at that time, Hoch noted that
earlier directive still in effect---NSAM 100---which ordered
plan drawn up for Castro's `removal'." What is the
as neither CIA, nor apparently the Mafia, had anything to do
Veciana's organization? It was solely a free lance
You give special emphasis to Hoch comments. Did
ANY documentation to the committee to support his memo, or
is it simply
GF: I'm not too sure what he means. What he's
terms of Hoch's opinion. Hoch's opinion seems to
was a contingency plan drawn for Castro's removal and Alpha
66 may have
involved in it, despite the fact that the CIA claimed that
with the Mafia were suspended. Veciana's attempt
not have been mentioned in the Church report but it
in the report Castro gave to McGovern at the time, as far as
Cuban intelligence information regarding attempts on
It was mentioned there and Veciana was specifically
point here, what is the purpose of this is neither the
the Mafia had anything to do with Alpha-66. Well
know, one of the points of my whole book is the relationship
CIA and Alpha-66 through Maurice Bishop or David Phillips.
[Questions 83-92 not answered by Gaeton Fonzi.]
93. Identify FABIOLA and tell us what you really
GF: *Yes, I can. I do have her name and
don't think it would be worth doing in terms of her own
93.a. She's still alive then?
GF: Yes, as far as I know.
[Question 94 not answered by Gaeton Fonzi.]
95. Why did you discount Marita Lorenz's experiences
based on a
anecdotal incident that had absolutely nothing to do with
she described in Florida pre-November 1963 and in Dallas
1963? If she was so unbelievable, why was her
testimony taken in
session and not published in the reports?
GF: First of all, executive sessions were determined
by one of
things. Whether or not the Committee itself felt that
that was being provided by the witness might endanger the
or be made prematurely public so as to hamper any additional
Or at the request of the individual. I think that the
Marita Lorenz' testimony in executive session was to
the publicity, I believe, she was after and why she went
scenario of getting herself all this newspaper publicity in
the Committee to call her. I had been telling the
that it wasn't necessary to call Marita Lorenz as a witness
discrepancies in the stories she was telling. And the
kept changing her stories. And why I discounted her
I think there's some validity to her earlier reports of
was doing here in Miami working with anti-Castro
people. As far
the connection to the Kennedy assassination, I discounted
that on far
than what's described here as a personal anecdotal
discounted as a result of specific information we developed
the individuals she said were involved. And we
couldn't find any
that they were in that caravan * going to Dallas. And
the names and number of people in the caravan.
95.a. How many cars were there in that?
GF: Eventually? Originally?
GF: Eventually, I think two or three
recall. Originally there was one.
96. Why didn't you find Antonio Veciana's changing
the cat and mouse Phillips/Bishop scenario, the cocaine
on his ability to accurately recall incidents in his
[This had been gone over in question number 19.e and was
during the interview]
97. Frank Sturgis appeared on CNBC on the 20th
anniversary of the
break-in. When a caller asked about Marita Lorenz, he
his lid. How do you consider him to be an impartial
GF: That's hard to consider Frank to be a, having been
character witness for anybody. But I document, in my
between Sturgis and Marita Lorenz. And how it
it was. And what it eventually became. I think
it appeared on the surface that they had a tremendous
falling out at
end, I have my doubts about that. I think the
scenario, as I
in my book, and as I state in my book, had some covert
And Frank Sturgis was wonderful in developing such
98. How can I get in touch with your
I'd like to write to him to confirm that, per THE LAST
former CIA officer code-named Ron Cross, told him that he
Phillips and that he knew Phillips used the pseudonym,
GF: I don't think I'd be free to give out Al Gonzales'
at this point. That would be an invasion of his
the House Select Committee investigative reports should be
should be soon made available. And whatever Crozier
and what he told me and Al Gonzales is documented in those
98.a. You said Crozier.
GF: In the initial article. Interesting.
I'm glad you
that up. In the initial article that I wrote about
I disguised his name as Ron Cross. And I think the
his name as Ron Cross. And subsequently, it was David
who revealed Ron Cross' real name as being Crozier.
98.b. How do you spell that?
GF: C-R-O-Z-I-E-R. And he revealed it publicly.
98.c. In what forum?
GF: In a response, I'm trying to recall now. It
or a debate with Tony Summers or in some document or
specifically revealed who Cross really was. And he
by saying well, you can't believe this guy, he was an
the interesting thing was, Cross, in fact, did tell us,
people will be
don't believe that guy, because he was an alcoholic.
And he said,
was an alcoholic." But he was totally recovered when
we talked to
He was a member of AA. And, but the real name of Ron
public only by David Phillips himself.
98.d. You mean, he disclosed the name of a CIA agent?
GF: Exactly. Exactly what he did.
98.e. Was that before the law was in effect?
Then he was
the exact same thing [as Phillip] Agee did?
GF: Exactly the same thing.
99. Do we have any documentation concerning the
investigation by the CIA?
GF: I was told that by researchers who had access to
99.a. So you claim that it is in a file somewhere in
that they had people?
GF: That's what I was told.
100. Did Jimmy Hoffa ever testify before the Church
he ever asked to?
GF: I don't know.
101. William Sullivan?
GF: The Church Committee? It sounds familiar,
but I don't
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